And how, dear mice, do you propose to "bell the cat"? On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> wrote: > That's exactly Nick's point. He says we should make it a cost to the > polluter. > > -- Russ Abbott > _____________________________________________ > Professor, Computer Science > California State University, Los Angeles > > Google voice: 747-999-5105 > blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ > vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ > _____________________________________________ > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Carl Tollander <c...@plektyx.com> wrote: >> >> Ah, but the polluter (the bosses, the bosses they're eating strawberries >> and cream!) doesn't give a damn. It's only a "cost" to those folks in, >> say, Bhopal, at least during the original time of export and perhaps not >> even then until the balloon goes up. The polluter and her accountants don't >> even consider it. >> >> On 3/24/11 11:22 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> >> I agree that "export externalities" is a strange phrase. I think the >> intended meaning is to export costs to the environment to avoid paying for >> them directly. The obvious example is pollution. The polluter doesn't pay >> because he exports that cost to the world at large. >> Markets and competition to my mind are quite different things. But that's >> a separate thread. >> >> >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ >> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Carl Tollander <c...@plektyx.com> wrote: >> >> This is a weird turn of phrase, to "export externalities". Where are we >> exporting them from if they are already, well, external? Hmph. >> >> Of course we import them as well, for example the flight you take today >> is safer and cheaper because the complex of airplane manufacturers, airports >> and regulators conspired to ever more efficiently metabolize the errors that >> made some poor chump's airplane fall out of the sky 40 years ago. I think >> this is part of the civilization contract. At some point someone in the >> future you don't even know will have a better time of it because the >> civilization learned from something that made your own life less than >> stellar. >> >> There seem to be some folks that believe this can only happen, or happens >> primarily through markets and competition. I confess that the notion that >> there is at any given instant a "true cost" or a "true price" for a good or >> service is seeming to me increasingly quaint. >> >> On 3/24/11 9:38 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> >> Yes, and no. >> Nick, you wrote, " if we are to base our economy on competition, then the >> practice of exporting externalities ... has to stop " The fact is that if we >> base our economy on competition, there is every incentive to export >> externalities. We can, of course, make rules and regulations that attempt >> to limit those exports. And those who benefit by such exports will look for >> other ways to export externalities. But I'm sure you and everyone else on >> this list already know that. >> >> -- Russ >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson >> <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> Vlad, >> >> >> >> Not sure why Peggy’s comment deserved such a trolllish response. >> >> >> >> I will join in her view that if we are to base our economy on competition, >> then the practice of exporting externalities to the neighborhoods and >> nations of the powerless has to stop. We have to work to find the true cost >> of products and that needs to be reflected in the price. Then and only then >> does competition rise above exploitation. I realize that this is not >> necessarily easy, but if one believes in the market place, it has to be >> done. >> >> >> >> By the way, what more do you need to know to demonstrate that cigarette >> smoking has associated health care costs? >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On >> Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky >> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:21 PM >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 >> >> >> >> It appears that your conclusion was made independent of the facts. Perhaps >> your conclusion serves some unidentified agenda, could you explain who WE is >> and how the PRICE TAG is adjusted to effect a specific end? >> >> I ecall how the price of cigarettes in Canada was increased to reflect the >> supposed increased health care costs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On >> Behalf Of peggy miller >> Sent: March-24-11 6:12 PM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 >> >> >> >> Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. >> Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution >> mitigation at bare minimum. >> >> -- >> >> Peggy Miller, owner/OEO >> >> Highland Winds >> wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds >> Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) >> >> Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings >> >> 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) >> Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm >> Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
