On 11/11/2013 11:40 AM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
> I have only seen a couple of John Wayne movies (sounds like that is
> representative though, just kidding) but as I recall his characters 1)
> shoot and punch people 2) sometimes just for fun, and 3) have been
> injured and relied on help. He does not seem like the epitome of low
> impact living to me.
1) Some people need to be shot or punched or shot and punched. I know
saying that will get me in trouble. But I do believe it.
Dunning-Kruger comes to mind, here. _You_ are more competent than many
of your fellows. And, because you're more competent, you tend to over
estimate their competence. The good news is that if/when you witness
the incompetence of your fellows, you will revise your estimate
downward. ;-) The same can't be said of them. It takes _more_ than
witnessing others' competence to get them to revise their estimates of
their own competence.
2) But the fun was consensual, even if begrudgingly so.
3) I can't disagree, here. Individualism really is a (convenient) lie.
> There are many ways that biological symbiosis is different from social
> symbiosis, but I think in both the usual sense of 'expectation' does not
> apply ("I expect you'll be leaving on the 12:00 train, then", "You
> failed to meet expectations, Bob, we will have to let you go", "Welcome
> welcome welcome, to the land of expectations, to the land of
> expectations, to the land [...]").
>
> If a clownfish fails to ward off predators and parasites from a sea
> anemone, the anemone is not going to say "What the heck man, we had a
> deal"
I disagree. I firmly believe that even our most lofty thoughts are a
direct result of sensorimotor interactions with the world. Hence, when
a human thinks another "failed to meet expectations", it is precisely
the same sense of "expectation" as the failure of a clownfish to ward
off predators from an anemone.
> and withdraw it's protection, it is just going to continue what it
> was doing.
Now, the degree of "directness" could be debated. An anemone is a
simpler machine than a human. Hence, the transformation from failed
expectations to reaction will be simpler. But it's a difference of
degree, not kind. (Disclosure: I have, in the past, on this mailing
list, defended the idea that circularity provides for a difference in
kind. So, you could argue that the lack of a centralized nervous system
in an anemone prevents the same navel-gazing circularity we humans have.
Hence, we humans might engage in a different kind of "expectation" ...
perhaps "anticipation". But, I would counter that the relatively banal
vernacular use of "expectation" by most people isn't all that reflexive.
There may be some expectations... those having to do with the big
questions - why are we here, etc. - that engage this different kind of
expectation. But for the most part, we don't.)
> This trend seems unsustainable, as there is no such thing as infinite
> luxury, wealth, and relaxation.
Nah. I would argue that the ever increasing narcissism is analogous to
the increasing beat illusion
<http://hebb.mit.edu/courses/9.29/2003/athena/auditory/beat.html>. The
NPI is flawed.
> We should instead set some ulterior goal
> (whatever you want, be it development of a field like technology or art,
> or observation / replication of the universe) and then remove poverty,
> discomfort, and stress where they impede completion of this goal to the
> extent needed. I feel it would be much more beneficial to the species
> and planet as a whole for someone else to be assured of a source of
> meals than for me to have access to more technology. If we can do both,
> great (sometimes these things can leapfrog).
Well, again, I think I have the same feelings you do. But I have to
check myself to be sure I have an accurate understanding of how the
universe works before I can make the same assertion. I'm usually
gobsmacked by how ignorant I actually am, which limits my conviction to
any particular societal objective.
--
⇒⇐ glen
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