Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"? I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch. Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it. Duh.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that > got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still > is) on a very good track!" > > I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get > control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander > the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with > the gerrymandering. Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it > will be tough to get them out of power. Unfortunately, technology will not > solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It > won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve > troglodyte courts. It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how > good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when > controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing > their best to arrange things so that they keep it. I wish I could be more > optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not. > > I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so > angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida > and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are > probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states > as such. > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefk...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Stuff like--maybe revolution? >> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Russ writes: >>> >>> >>> "I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of >>> Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we >>> should get beyond that." >>> >>> Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that. >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Russ Abbott < >>> russ.abb...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM >>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do >>> about it) >>> >>> Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote, >>> but I'd like to add a brief comment. >>> >>> I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the >>> thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence >>> of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor >>> but the very existence of the American experiment." >>> >>> But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes >>> it out. (That was Marcus's point.) He gives an example of Trump lying >>> followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump >>> supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming >>> even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all >>> happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when >>> someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly >>> what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest >>> won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond >>> that.) But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another >>> time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.) >>> Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part >>> of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the >>> politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact >>> that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump >>> opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side >>> to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There was a good TED talk >>>> <https://www.ted.com/talks/caitlin_quattromani_and_lauran_arledge_how_our_friendship_survives_our_opposing_politics?rss#t-852200> >>>> by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly >>>> politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at >>>> remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with. However, I think >>>> that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most >>>> important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades >>>> or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by >>>> the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other >>>> side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without >>>> regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor >>>> country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil >>>> terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks >>>> you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself >>>> against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized >>>> conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them >>>> don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as >>>> much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and >>>> McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms >>>> with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward. >>>> In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving >>>> for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense. >>>> That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement >>>> mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve >>>> every problem. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nick writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Allow me to heckle, if you will. Marcus, your post exemplifies a >>>>> theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris >>>>> veritas. * >>>>> It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of >>>>> the moment. Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this >>>>> theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth >>>>> about anything. I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come >>>>> closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest >>>>> awareness >>>>> of the social consequences of what we are saying." >>>>> >>>>> That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social >>>>> properties of the group. I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is >>>>> some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the >>>>> diplomatic conditions in North Korea. But I wasn't talking about speaking >>>>> impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain >>>>> people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to >>>>> the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at >>>>> all). I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way >>>>> Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or >>>>> how deep the divisions go. I think that is bad advice because it >>>>> rewards >>>>> the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that >>>>> the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility. So, >>>>> unlike >>>>> Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace. (That's a fine thing for him to >>>>> optimize for, but that's him.) It reminds me of what Christopher >>>>> Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian >>>>> conservatives: "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead >>>>> to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great >>>>> pleasure to take part." >>>>> >>>>> Marcus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Nick Thompson < >>>>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM >>>>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do >>>>> about it) >>>>> >>>>> Dear Marcus, Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Allow me to heckle, if you will. Marcus, your post exemplifies a >>>>> theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris >>>>> veritas. *It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in >>>>> the heat of the moment. Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the >>>>> weakness >>>>> of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak >>>>> the truth about anything. I think it’s equally plausible to assert that >>>>> we >>>>> come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest >>>>> awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >>>>> >>>>> Clark University >>>>> >>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus >>>>> Daniels >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM >>>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do >>>>> about it) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Owen, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural >>>>> third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in >>>>> person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine." Now, some people think that >>>>> in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character. >>>>> That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' >>>>> feelings, >>>>> all conflict will be resolved. No. I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman, >>>>> and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken. >>>>> Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it >>>>> certainly isn't informative. It is just the application of social skill, >>>>> and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in >>>>> debate. It is a weak facilitator. The problem with the current situation >>>>> is that one side is just dishonest. In the ternary world of politics, the >>>>> `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marcus >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Owen Densmore < >>>>> o...@backspaces.net> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM >>>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group >>>>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about >>>>> it) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" >>>>> (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot >>>>> of >>>>> what we've been dealing with. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned- >>>>> upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ============================================================ >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Russ Abbott >>>> Professor, Computer Science >>>> California State University, Los Angeles >>>> >>> -- >>> Russ Abbott >>> Professor, Computer Science >>> California State University, Los Angeles >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. >> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy >> emergentdiplomacy.org >> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA >> >> Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding >> Saint Paul University >> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada >> >> merlelefk...@gmail.com <merlelef...@gmail.com> >> mobile: (303) 859-5609 >> skype: merle.lelfkoff2 >> twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > -- > Russ Abbott > Professor, Computer Science > California State University, Los Angeles > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding Saint Paul University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada merlelefk...@gmail.com <merlelef...@gmail.com> mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
