Frank, nothing is wrong with mentioning brains, except the number of potential diversions the use of such vocabulary introduces, increasing the scattering of conversational threads. my only hope was to establish a kind of specific definition for truth, as requested by Nick. Nick's definition was operational and involved a system of interacting individuals and the possibility of (non)convergence while mine is at a more fundamental level as a condition of a single system. Nick's definition arises at the level of a group, while mine is restricted to the condition of a single entity.
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 06:50 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Something you say reminds me of the difference between grey matter and > white matter in the brain. What's wrong with mentioning brains? > White matter influence increases with age as I recall.> > Frank > > Frank Wimberly > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Oct 19, 2017 1:07 AM, "Prof David West" > <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote:>> Nick, >> >> Yeah, the model is pretty obtuse - because I was trying to >> avoid using>> terminology like mind, brain, etc. But it was probably a >> futile >> effort.>> >> I define lower-case truth as a particular state of a mechanism, an >> impaired state. So my sensor-connection web - effector mechanism was>> >> designed/evolved to be absolutely dynamic and flexible so that >> it can>> respond to any possible combination of inputs by activating any >> and all>> appropriate outputs. If a sensor or an effector fails, the >> abilities of>> the system are diminished. If a specific pathway through >> the web of>> pathways becomes fixed and inflexible, the abilities of the >> system are>> diminished. >> >> I define lower-case truth as nothing more than one of those >> capability>> diminishing 'failures' of the system. >> >> Because the failure is within the system, it is local - hence 'local>> >> truth'. >> >> This is not a "belief" in the usual sense of that word, because >> the word>> implies a "believer," and I speak of nothing except a mechanism >> and>> particular states of that mechanism. >> >> Upper-case Truth simply does not exist. >> >> Now,application of my model, use of my definition of 'truth', to >> understand the individual mechanism and its behavior in a large >> context>> I need to take small steps. So let me say that my mechanism is >> what>> underlies a human individual and look at one aspect of that >> individual's>> behavior - the use of language. >> >> A language like English is extraordinarily fluid and dynamic. That >> fluidity and dynamism is diminished, significantly, when individuals>> >> increasingly rely on linguistic constructs of the form: A IS B. >> You have>> heard me say, many times that the verb 'to be' is the root of >> all >> linguistic evil. I made that exact point in my model when >> asserting that>> a channelized circuit equated to A (a set of inputs) = B >> (a set of >> outputs). >> >> At some point, the application of my model/definition to a system >> containing multiple individual systems would be in order, but I >> have not>> approached that topic as yet. Primarily because my intent so >> far has>> just to provide the definition of 'truth' that you said was >> missing from>> the discussion. >> >> davew >> >> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017, at 01:28 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: >> > David, >> > >> > Just checking: I have a hard time following the model in detail, >> > but it>> > sounds like what you mean by "truth" is very like what I mean >> by >> > "belief". For me, a belief is a "local truth". >> > >> > So, that being the case, what is the name of the thing that >> > you say>> > doesn't exist, the thing that other people call, >> T-with-a-capital >> > Truth>> > Are you asserting that there is no stable purchase point beyond >> > what I>> > would call, "individual belief". When a group of people >> coalesces >> > around>> > a belief, what would you call that? (Shared belief?) Are all >> > shared>> > beliefs of the same quality? (Group think?) >> > >> > Now please remember -- nobody seems to understand this point -- >> > that as>> > of the moment I have made no argument for the EXISTENCE of >> > anything>> > beyond local truth. >> > >> > Nicholas S. Thompson >> > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> > Clark University >> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof >> > David>> > West >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:59 PM >> > To: friam@redfish.com >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely>> > >> Nothing!” >> > >> > Steve, >> > >> > My definition refers to a single system - a single system and >> > is not>> > intended to suggest anything about interacting systems, nor >> > anything>> > external to itself. I do assume that this system is >> contained >> > within a>> > complex system which is the source of the input signals >> detected >> > by the>> > sensors. I similarly assume that the effectors may transmit >> > signals to>> > the containing system but want to leave that aside for >> the moment.>> > >> > I could metaphorically equate my system to a neural network brain >> > within>> > the skin of a human being — but again would prefer to simply >> focus >> > on my>> > system in a non-anthropomorphized manner; just to keep things >> > simple and>> > to avoid the potential for diversions into side >> conversations. >> > >> > I am also using neural networks - without naming things as such - >> > again,>> > to avoid distractions, this makes explanations clumsier, but >> it >> > serves my>> > purpose for the moment. >> > >> > The connecting web can route any input to any output, using a near>> > >> infinite number of pathways. More importantly it can route any >> > combination of inputs to any combination of outputs along any of >> > the near>> > INFINITE (I yell only to point out the combinatorial >> explosion of>> > pathways) number of routes (circuits). >> > >> > Now imagine that this system is an organism and that the >> > connection of>> > some [input | set of inputs | pattern of inputs] to >> [an| set of | >> > pattern>> > of] outputs increases its survival potential. Further >> imagine that >> > this>> > system is highly dynamic and acutely optimized to assure than >> and >> > and all>> > input/s are conveyed to the most useful output/s (with useful >> > being>> > simply the increase or maintenance of survival potential. >> > The web of input-output connects can be 'rewired' in "real time," >> > i.e.>> > in whatever unit of time exists between receipt of the next >> > inputs.>> > >> > Now imagine that a/some sensors seem to receive the same input >> > over and>> > over again and, due to "fatigue" they either shut down and >> fail to >> > relay>> > the input to the web, or they lock into constantly sending the >> > same input>> > value to the web without regard to whatever was actually >> sensed. >> > System fault. >> > >> > Similarly, a particular pathway (set of pathways) are utilized >> > more often>> > when receiving a particular pattern of inputs and those >> pathways >> > channelize, essentially become fixed. System fault because the >> > ability of>> > the system to adapt is impaired. This would be >> particularly >> > evident if>> > the pattern of inputs begins to subtly change, but change >> enough >> > that the>> > pattern of outputs should be modified and they are not. >> > >> > Whenever these faults occur, the system as a whole starts behaving >> > as if>> > A (set of inputs) IS B (set of outputs). That simply use of the >> > verb 'to>> > be' is my definition of "truth," and it is purely local >> because >> > it is a>> > condition/state of the individual system. >> > >> > Very quickly - imagine several such systems interacting. Your >> > marching>> > band for example. For each member of the band as a single >> > organism (of>> > the type discussed above) all the other members of the >> band are >> > simply>> > part of a containing complex system. When each of the >> individual >> > systems>> > are using their innate ability to route the 'right' inputs >> to the >> > 'right'>> > outputs the outcome can be cacophony that morphs into an >> exquisite>> > performance. But when individual systems start to fail - >> establish>> > truthiness - start to "mail in" their part of the overall >> > performance,>> > the band as a whole and your enjoyment of their >> performance is >> > bound to>> > suffer. >> > >> > davew >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 04:58 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> > > Dave sez: >> > > > It is certainly possible for one sensor-web-effector state >> > > > machine>> > > > to "infect" another, i.e. stimulate a second machine >> to >> > > > replicate>> > > > the behavior. If that happens we have >> 'convergence' which is >> > > > nothing>> > > > more than collective 'fault'/ 'defectiveness'. >> > > > >> > > It sounds as if you believe that resonance, mode locking, phase>> > > >> locking, tidal locking, etc. are somehow defective ways for >> > > systems>> > > to interact. I can agree that they are modestly less >> > > interesting>> > > than more chaotic systems. While *I* might find a >> marching >> > > (esp. if>> > > they are goose-stepping) army aberrant (and abhorrent), >> I might >> > > find a>> > > *marching band* or *synchronized swimmers* or a >> dance-troupe >> > > following>> > > a choreography (e.g. Cirque de Soliel perfomance) >> somehow >> > > beautiful.>> > > And I would suggest these are examples of what you >> are judging >> > > as>> > > "defective"? I suppose that since only a *subsystem* of the >> > > units>> > > (dancers/musicians/soldiers) are mode/phase-locked for the >> > > duration of>> > > the march/performance, that this is only a partial >> example and >> > > therefore only *partially* defective/faulty? >> > > >> > > I believe it is in the liminal space which fills the near- >> > > locality of>> > > a shared "dialect" where the interesting stuff >> happens, not >> > > unlike in>> > > dynamical systems' "edge of chaos". I agree with the >> technical>> > > expression that any "statement of Truth" is a defect, but >> that >> > > does>> > > not mean that it doesn't gesture in the direction of, or >> roughly>> > > circumscribe, or provide a proxy for a more transcendent >> > > "truth".>> > > One >> > > *might* argue that each individual has a private, idiosyncratic>> > > >> dialect of "the same language", and that interaction amongst >> > > individuals whose dialects are similar enough to intend to >> > > agree/discuss/converge/??>> > > >> > > I would claim that a well formed question suggests a family of >> > > "answers">> > > and thereby hints at what we want to believe in as >> "truth". >> > > >> > > This paper may (or may not) offer some perspective on the >> > > evolution of>> > > a language/dialect and teh convergence/coherence >> issue. >> > > >> > > >> https://www.researchgate.net/project/Coherence-Convergence-and-Change->> > >> > A-Sociolinguistic-Variationist-Approach-to-Dialect-and-Standard- >> > > Langua>> > > ge-Use-in-Swabia >> > > >> > > - Steve >> > > >> > > ============================================================ >> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 >> > > at cafe>> > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe >> > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove>> > >> > ============================================================ >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to >> > unsubscribe>> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> > >> > >> > ============================================================ >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > to unsubscribe >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>> > FRIAM-COMIC >> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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