Hi Nick, I don't recall saying trees feel no pain. I just said that movement was a poor indicator of the ability to feel pain or the potential ability to feel pain.
For a host of reasons I would agree with you that neither trees nor humans "feel pain." That which we label pain (some kind of physiological stimulus-response) simply is. The label and the verb-label dyad are delusional overlays. davew On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So, David, > > A tree, when assaulted by caterpillars, alters its physiology to produce > toxins (at cost to its growth) and puts out chemicals to alert > neighboring trees which do the same. > > On what basis exactly do you assert that trees don't feel pain. > > I stipulate that this question is asked by a person who doesn't think > humans "feel pain". There aren’t two steps, pain and the feeling of it. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 2:28 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize? > > > Weighing yourself everyday is actually an excellent way to promote > weight loss. So too frequent, even hourly, measures of heart rate, > glucose level, etc. Not because you do something in reaction to the > measure, simply because it causes a kind of Hawthorne Effect, that > forces you to intentionally take, or refrain from taking, some kind of > action - like eating that sixth doughnut. > > I am watching plants move outside of my window. I doubt the plants are > feeling pain, nor are they reacting to/ avoiding pain. True, most people > don't eat pines, cedars, and manzanitas, and food plants, e.g. a potato, > don't move much. But still, movement, even as an indicator or potential > for feeling pain, seems less than useful. > > Besides, pain is good: 1) "no pain, no gain;" 2) self-flagellation to > bring oneself closer to God; or 3) "Pain is instructive." Baron von > Masoch > > davew > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, at 8:00 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote: > > Not at all. One can over-intervene with respect to any ongoing dynamic. > > For example, some people concerned about their weight will step on a > > scale every day and, based on what they see, either modify their diet > > for the day or perhaps simply feel one way or another (good or bad). > > But such instantaneous measures are largely useless for health and > > fitness. It's the trends that matter. And any intervention should be > > done based on the trends and maintained for quite awhile before their > > effects can be understood. > > > > On 09/14/2018 04:57 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > Out of curiosity, does over-intervention concern apply to government > > > behavior only? One could imagine the same technology trends empower > > > many groups and individuals. > > > > > > -- > > ∄ uǝʃƃ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove