" because, then truly, “Knowedge Extinguishes Emergence.” Well.... there are attempts to define emergence as what happens when the phenomena at higher levels *could not *be predicted from knowledge of the lower levels alone.
Probably that definition involves a lot of question begging, and seems to involve proving a negative, which is always problematic.... but it *is *more coherent than trying to define it based on what we happen to predict based on limited knowledge of the lower levels. It is not simply a matter of what you or I would predict (in Peircian sort of manner). ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Personnel Psychologist Drug Enforcement Administration <echar...@american.edu> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:46 PM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hi, Frank, > > > > No. I suppose not. Here’s where we need Hywel. Could we predict it from > the shape of the water molecule? > > > > In general, I wish to avoid psychologizing concepts like “emergence”. I > don’t want them to be dependent on anybody’s knowledge, or lack thereof. > So, I don’t want to think (I may have to, eventually) that emergence is > based on our ability to predict, because, then truly, “Knowedge > Extinguishes Emergence.” > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank > Wimberly > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:26 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words > > > > Emergent: hexagonality of snowflakes. Can we predict that from water > vapor and cold? > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Tue, May 7, 2019, 5:58 PM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > Marcus, > > > > Of course I see [now] why he was annoyed. And I apologized. And I won’t > do it again. And I have tried to explain (and I think Glen has more or > less accepted) that my intent was not aggressive. > > > > Not sure how that relates to the question I asked you. Are games > instances in good standing of emergent phenomena? > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus > Daniels > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2019 2:59 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words > > > > No, I meant that Glen is right and you are wrong, in spite of the > superficial transactional evidence back and forth. Actual quotation > marks, and you can’t see why is he annoyed? > > > > *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Nick Thompson < > nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 2:53 PM > *To: *'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words > > > > Sorry, Marcus, do I misunderstand? Or did I misunderstand Frank? > > > > A pingpong game is not a proper emergent? > > > > Cf tennis and chess: > > > > To call a social interaction a > > dance is to stress the *peraction *of social agents. When agents peract, > > they act *through *or *by means of *one another. Each has a state > > of affairs toward which his or her behavior is directed, and that > > state of affairs requires certain actions on the part of the social > > partner. The behavior of each actor is therefore directed toward > > using the other as a tool to produce a particular desirable result. > > The dialectic between their peractions *is *the dance. From an observer’s > > standpoint, the best dances, like the best chess games and > > the best tennis matches, are those in which neither peractant entirely > > gets his or her own way. > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com > <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2019 2:04 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words > > > > No, not really. > > > > *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Frank Wimberly < > wimber...@gmail.com> > *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 1:43 PM > *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words > > > > To the outside observer, a ping pong game has emerged. > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Tue, May 7, 2019, 1:38 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > No. Again, I would never say that. Why are you interacting this way? What > are you trying to achieve by attributing things to me that I didn't write? > > On 5/7/19 12:36 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > "Emergence is in the eye of the beholder." G. Ropella, 2019 > > -- > ☣ uǝlƃ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove