There was a joke Martin Shubik used to like to tell about academics. Excuse me; about parrots.
A man sells parrots. They have different costs, colors, habits, etc. This one here’s pretty but not too expensive, he can say 5 words. This one’s more expensive; he can say 50 words. This African Grey is really expensive; he can say 250 words. Customer looks at a very ugly parrot with a very high price. How many words can this one say, to be so expensive? Salesman: That parrot doesn’t say any words. Customer: Then why the cost? Salesman: That parrot can think. > On May 24, 2020, at 6:16 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > A chimp yes; all the rest no. I had a friend who had an African Gray parrot. > He could say a number of things but there was no "there" there. > > In my opinion. > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:57 PM Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com > <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: > > > On 5/23/20 9:15 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote: >> The observer problem. Does it require a human to do the observation? What >> about a parrot? A chimpanzee? An amoeba? A Turing machine? > God, Gawdess, Gaia, Collective Intelligence? >> >> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 9:47 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm >> <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote: >> Peirce: >> >> "To satisfy our doubts, therefore, it is necessary that a method should be >> found by which our beliefs may be determined by nothing human, but by some >> external permanency—by something upon which our thinking has no effect. ... >> Such is the method of science. Its fundamental hypothesis, restated in more >> familiar language, is this: There are Real things, whose characters are >> entirely independent of our opinions about them; those Reals affect our >> senses according to regular laws, and, though our sensations are as >> different as our relations to the objects, yet, by taking advantage of the >> laws of perception, we can ascertain by reasoning how things really and >> truly are; and any man, if he have sufficient experience and he reason >> enough about it, will be led to the one True conclusion." >> >> The above quote is a context from which I am about to take words and ask >> questions. Those more familiar with the Peirce corpus in toto must admonish >> me if I am being unfair, i.e. this quote is an outlier or an exception to >> Peirce in general. >> >> 1- If "There are Real things, upon which our thinking has no effect," and >> there are"beliefs"" and "doubts" and "reasoning" that are, arguably, >> affected by our thoughts: >> a. Is Peirce a dualist? A Cartesian dualist that distinguishes between an >> external permanency and internal thought? >> b. Are beliefs, doubts, reasoning 'Real things'? >> >> 2- Quantum physics has an "observer problem" that seems to imply that the >> the "characters of Real things" are, in fact, affected by human thinking, >> or, at least, human attention." >> a. Are there 'Real things'? >> >> 3- Weak postmodern objection: all beliefs and all methods are determined by >> the human, technically the social, and there is no objective criteria by >> which to give privilege over one human determined method/belief over >> another.. >> a. Does Peirce have grounds to privilege Reason over other >> methods/beliefs, e.g. 'meditation', 'faith'? >> >> 4- Stronger postmodern objection: "the laws of perception," [the rules of] >> reasoning," "sufficient experience," and "reason enough," taken together, >> constrain the possible 'solution space' too severely; the 'one >> [provisionally] True conclusion" is foregone — a product of the process, not >> congruence with any "external permanency." >> a. What are the "laws" that govern how the Real affects our senses? >> b. What are the "laws of perception?" >> c. Does "sufficient experience" and "reason enough" mandate a narrow, and >> intolerant, orthodoxy? >> >> davew >> >> >> >> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... >> ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> >> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> >> >> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... >> ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > > -- > Frank Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > 505 670-9918 > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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