In my personal affect, Marcus, I completely share your feeling. > On Jan 8, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > > I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind > of situation. > > As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal > with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them. > > Get that point across.
Yet, as a tactical matter, I was glad at the end that they exercised such excessive restraint (or incapacity), which was not necessarily a _good_ choice, and would have been a disaster if the mob had had firearms or napalm out and active, but which turned out to get through a clusterfsck with amazingly small loss of life, making the group at large look more like a badly done zombie movie than like Benghazi where real terrorists had a goal. Even as the day was unfolding, I thought this might have been a “good” trajectory just because they were in DC, where possession of un-permitted firearms is illegal and is somewhat-effectively policed. The same setup in Michigan, N. Carolina, or Texas, would not have recommended the same early part of the trajectory. Also relevant to this is a point that Justin King makes properly: trump never had allegiance of the military, and without that there was a limited impact a coup attempt was capable of having. I am constantly put in mind of the meeting that MLK and John Lewis had with LBJ, where LBJ was protesting (for real or as an excuse) that he didn’t have the power to pass the civil rights act. When they left, Lewis asked MLK what they were going to do now, and MLK’s answer was “We’re going to go get the president some power.” My thoughts about what is possible are mixed. On one hand, as vicious as racism and the social complacency with racism was in the 1960s, I worry that in a way the society is even more degraded (though less visibly so on the surface) today. In the 1960s, there were large communities of people like my mother, who would have been appalled if she had seen any of this, but lived so entirely within a bubble that even Selma somehow never really reached her. It is only in the past decade or so that she realizes how much of everything going on in the nation was just lost on her in her early 20s, when she was worried about how to start a marriage and a family against personal neuroticism combined with religious fundamentalism and significant poverty — you know, the kinds of things that can distract the mind of a young person. My father, being a lower-class east coast white man, and less smart, would probably have missed the point in his republicanism even if he had seen it on the news. But around all that social siloing, there seems to have been a large enough community of people with the same basic fabric as my mother, who were reached by Selma, that it got LBJ over the hump. Today, it is easy to know about everything, and the fact that people don’t suggests that there is a more deliberate hiding that is more pervasive in the society, meaning that there may be less of the whole cloth of goodness of my mother’s cohort available to work with today. Also, while the 1960s were miserable between racism and cold-war proxies, economically the period from the 50s to the 70s was one of increasing economic fairness, providing a certain optimism that could give people breathing room to be decent if they would choose to do so. Today the grievance sector of the US is anchored in not only bad but worsening straits for all the reasons Piketty and others document, which we have discussed here at length. The real parts of that frustration probably provide a heavier boat anchor for the rump of the society than there was in the 1960s. And as we have the capacity to know that climate and political instabilities are bearing down on us, I think there is a more determined head in the sand across the society than there was then. The only major area in which the situation is less neurotic is that people aren’t widely aware of nuclear danger the way they were coming out of the 1950s. On the other hand, if I zoom out and look at material events stripped of symbolism, the officials managed to get several thousand ignorant, stupid, or simply lost people through a day of mostly chest-beating without very many people getting killed. That that seems to define a kind of “proportional” outcome, which would have been lost if, say, all those inside the capital had been locked in and set on fire, as might have been done in Ancient Rome or even by the resistance in Nazi-occupied countries. Would those inside have “let themselves in for it”? Yes, and I would not have had a large emotional response of sympathy for them. But it would have cemented the US as a country that institutionally was incapable of getting itself through any conflict with something like limited damage. The image I want somebody with acumen to cement from Wednesday is one of the bum-shamble of degradation of the rump of the society, its representatives, and its institutions. Yes, they are domestic terrorists, but they are sort of domestic terrorists in the same sense as Eric Prince is a mercenary (as in the article SteveS forwarded: “Oh, Prince? You mean the world’s worst mercenary?”) I want trump tied to the republicans like the albatross, not only around the mariner, but the whole crew of shipmates. Let them fall down and each one curse him with his eye, but (politically speaking) die anyway. It’s hard today, because the US has been fed such a steady diet of degradation and melodrama that it is hard to get people appalled by anything any more. But somehow I feel like breaking through that hallucination still needs to be the goal. It would work compatibly with an interval of good governance going forward, in quick areas like public health, minimum wage and stop-gap public employment options, restoration of collective bargaining organs, and things of that sort. Dunno. There is a strange thing about self-governance. In the middle layers of the hierarchy, there is some notion of justice as rules of the game, where the players can be held accountable to referees higher up in the ladder. But at the top rungs, within the legislature and executive, and in international relations, there is only self-reference, and what one can manage to get done. It's an ugly domain where I am glad I do not work, but where I feel obliged to think the rules of desirable play may be somewhat different. Eric > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism > > > On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police >> were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen. > > and, and, and... all three. > > Incompetent: I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in > dealing with aggressive groups... maybe a few aggressive individuals, but > not a mob. The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely > to a fault). Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not really > that surprising. > > Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to > march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't expect > the crowds to become a mob. Hindsight makes it seem absurd they couldn't > expect that, but they seem not to have? DC Mayor who may have anticipated > some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she probably > didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have spilled > over. I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest beat-downs > in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file who are > normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol entrance. > > Complicit: Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and > encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If > any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit, I > think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers or > some Congressional staff/members themselves. I do wish there would be a > public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from their > point of view of what happened. Or more to the point, *private* interviews > recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so that they > could not build their narratives together). I'm not sure there were more > than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, > but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades > our culture. It doesn't smell like an "inside job". > > On the topic of complicity/culpability: I think *every* identifiable person > on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime that > fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private > interviews/statements taken and released to the public. If one of my > neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know > what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there. I am a naturally > forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be > accountable to *me* (and their other > neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr. > Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where that > persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more than a > few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they participated in > and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore culpable. I also wonder if > there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely there were on-protestor citizens > attending the hearings? They were open, right? > > Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some > more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants. It feels as if > he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door... > it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the > shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it? > > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of ? glen >> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism >> >> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely >> agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is >> vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that >> help me doubt my opinion: >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.propublica.org%2farticle%2fcapitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-i&c=E,1,cuc8rsFWYJEIxD8sVELQWpJrqZUEXTW0DArxgUAfitXocexDJY3-2mtEf8X9hRPsHkIYAElDEKGx0arSB5fKSoG37WBRtns6jKyw3tBbrFfaWpD7lks9nYw,&typo=1 >> n-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996 >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.opb.org%2farticle%2f2021%2f01%2f06%2fwashington-2021-legislative-ses&c=E,1,2u7-8S6a-QZaV_ON5NYBgJzRpQanjbEyVHSkva4RPg8lhnwyU-LzZWnPTipvorCJfIqhKEXJ1PTJTDFq4RpGEl-G2QOscOBdmCwHy9wK1nEchA4dorgmhzqe-TM,&typo=1 >> sion/ >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fpugetsoundanarchists.org%2fevergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics&c=E,1,Mum6ixn0AuzQaxHfkT13yNlggpwQNxax6H9V-aL2cdrXdhG9f6PxX1UNzuc04KaSxE4GwoVJ2gnaQc4mqMlGn_D8_piCfPovSgurHI6PFZo,&typo=1 >> -and-details/ >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.patheos.com%2fblogs%2fthefreethinker%2f2021%2f01%2fchristian-who-bre&c=E,1,1mVQx5LNrfGolzknHuw-ouGUyGHcfxClG9QUgv92hVOHqzl22xeOspyU8VPfVrwW4ZMcdx9YPf3QHyD7kPXXCeO8tvks7oxBc_EHLlVPV0fQ6ty_JD_-&typo=1 >> ached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/ >> >> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be >> more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump: >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fundark.org%2f2021%2f01%2f07%2fscience-trump-grip-white-male-effect%2f&c=E,1,BS3o76kXkxqO_UyVhn8_5GUIlmGRYv5yGMljdZlnKe3W4fOLuLUsOEno7w15Exl7DtkzeZnO2yA6SowZpkU1NiOJryqlvNksIPtbKhQvdTENYXjfvkiHSABm&typo=1 >> >> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if >> I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. >> But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when >> it may not be yahoos. >> >> >> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles >> <eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm >>> yesterday) >>> >>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we >>> are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly: >>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find >>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the >>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks >>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried >>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the >>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, >>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and >>> I'm less worried about those things now than I was before. >>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30 >>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on >>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I >>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out >>> of both sides. >>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup >>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it >>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be >>> more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a >>> country of >>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots >>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with >>> some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized >>> group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no >>> bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no >>> military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing. >>> >>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6 >>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM >>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife >>> Refuge stand off. >>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda >>> and no resolve. >>> >>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they >>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been >>> nothing. >>> >> -- >> glen ⛧ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,bK0iUv54rLgm_CpCU6uUpF67c--lG6u3b-e_cPNqlX4LuTM9CbZCyaAWfgtXwq8ZC2pP4-oZquy9YDw9FK2_A3WdOdE1GVMfbbf0BQWtlETa39zpc0AOWeTr&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,QedIUX21PFVu77ECXTE-pGxo2k_Ht7eZr2ME2DQjOXBXzR99TbnpQ-swJ3xle8NaCPOo-PqVqrnu-5sAZo3Uu9brlkib6nk_2tT1B25_1bCs&typo=1 >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zT9xKoWKU4TRUMCn4i8x7gXgP4xj6fq8xDDOSr-5d-pgLNHRvJF0ZNXTwkLuX46q6quaUoVAMelXElJKtAi3C0oMVkxrgFGD4PVOCv7bWQ,,&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,c-rraOKLMJV8UmUeLX1M7XHF4jOAs1-8KLU1XsuOx04lO-6sMA9Ax43isjTX8dTBIG5p0sdRA1cMcnm5nZaL8DkMlMsGGEUOwXiuZgJsD6wJDiRY2W4da_R7xDrO&typo=1 >> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,BlVUQkJ8THPz4ODDIhXuj9wjYHeHA762EHtO0d5oEkjHbLkJcJaN706fTMG1-LL1_chDAOQoM72NYgataTKkz_QQUFqQkP7kld3u3bKYXdg,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-i0cImnQd96VNHbMunOLSK2QOOFKw2syFEwL-ZZ-cafpNkeYgn9VdVce3Jj7otSS-Bflz_A8q2YEF17TbKjAWxaQodnVsNdvpIJd10v34QFiLDSogt4u9CtG-wCz&typo=1 > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,XntBI1yjUK2_FA4sxi6NvJT8PAwNkPXZ4bh9_EB-v3dZkQt6sjUTVqrO6xlIiQxRkUTaZG2J0LV_jscotK9PPJ1S0PJL1P7zNDp7N4wltnyXn3gwxIxDkhS74w,,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,jz7oiYQ1lVuI6SeMXizcUw1CBjnQpYgIBGgiHH0zzUrjZ824tNGlflFaWHKYUArwX_44d7779roI0t_JRccSPcpIH5c3-jV5ArVqxCC2VG0cm3AqKl_gKA,,&typo=1 > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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