. Marcus wrote:
In the world that I guess Dave is afraid of, people that mouth off too have bad outcomes. Maybe that policing is not so bad? It depends upon our purposes. Every once in a while I think we should put our heads above the ramparts and ask if we are paying to great a price for it. But given the results of my little experiment, I would say no. We are who we are and let’s just go on being the best us we can be. n Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:58 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms I guess I can see why you’d say that. However, I’d argue there is still social behavior, even honesty and trust, in a world where information is exchanged in a very cautious way From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:10 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms Marcus, The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that there is a me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the constraints of any social contact. The contrasting view is that “me” is inevitably social, and that it is revealed only by social interaction. So the stable me, the naked me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical average. Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:45 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms Ok, I’ll take the other side. There’s a way to say almost anything with indirection. Some degree of censorship selects for people who can do that. (Not that I agree that this kind of legislation is really like to occur.) From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:54 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in following it. On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu <mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote: An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down. On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote: Nick, "I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM." A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes legislating. But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it. davew On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: Right, Marcus. That's where I ended up, too. While I need to IMAGINE that you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter. The illusion of you attentively listening has broken many a writer's block. I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM. You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\) However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at engaging them. Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,bta9UWO0tN3h5jdaTwk3lVb6V2StIFgDn8R4YlJvylk2j2NV0QTwoEqVLuV_SiMM-GgMLLo5VNi8CE0-zKlFovQfSZlSC0MwI0seCIAWDLo,&typo=1&ancr_add=1> -----Original Message----- From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter. Fwiw, I suppose I follow a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being paid or whatnot: 1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it. 2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon. Say, if the speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some skin in the game. 3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated. Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Friam < <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < <mailto:friam@redfish.com> friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms Well, generally that is the paradox. But the narcissism I am talking about is INTRA group narcissism -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 members of the group will understand. We are a sufficiently broad group that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it would also be understood by a lot of other people. But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to standardize. That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening. Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me. I think many of us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's altogether a Bad Thing. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,ESdb80SJH_TwaTmvG9Uk5oZhrH-1Bhnrw7bS0eoiFMmvuv2zb7fbD06amSmSye5OF2rkvWZJEgpzLcIMjr_XZQXhsR76-FhwrdsNK0m5_Fy2&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam < <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:46 PM To: <mailto:friam@redfish.com> friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms IDK, man. This contribution rings a bit hollow. Jargon, insider jokes and words, etc. all serve group cohesion. Coming from Nick, who sporadically talks of FriAM as important *as a group*, including attempts to formulate some threads as coherent presentable things, it seems good, generalized/popularized, communication is antithetic. But it *does* bode well for treating forum posts as public essays rather than intra-group chatting ... which I've argued is the case. A flaw in my argument, that those who disagree with me have yet to point out, is that despite being publicly available on Nabble, it's not really a public forum. It's not widely read. We *do* use obComplexity jargon just to titillate each other. Etc. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to viewing these posts as public essays is that we don't have a standard set of rules (like Frank's) posts are expected to follow. So, the classical mathetists among us will argue that you can't have your cake and eat it. Either we're a group of insiders, a tribe, or this is a publication medium which should have some associated rules. Perhaps that's the paradox Nick's after? On 1/26/21 10:19 AM, <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > This correspondence has been an example of it self. Narcissism is the > enemy of communication. > > I suppose there is SOME sense in putting obscurities in email blasts to the > list and clasping to your bosom anybody who happens to understand you. (I did > that with my recent supervenience post and got one answer that was > tremendously helpful) It’s like hitchhiking, then; you only need one ride. > But while it makes some sense, as a general strategy of communication, isn’t > it a bit pathetic, after all? Isn’t there some paradox in communication that > is designed to be exclusive? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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