Nick, my last response was kind harsh.
Although, I see little value in Pirsig's books, I am very interested in the ideas or the inspirations you may have found in them, and would welcome a discussion of those things and perhaps the discovery of shared ideas/values/philosophies that are common even if derived from different roots. davew On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Prof David West wrote: > Nick, > > Like Steve, I was gravely disappointed in the book. I had been studying > Eastern philosophies for nearly thirty years when it was published so one > level of disappointment was the lack of anything new, even a new perspective. > > The whole mental illness / introspection / Phaedrus persona / son as mirror > aspect elicited the same reaction as Steve - what indulgence. > > The book does echo some philosophical ideas — of which I doubt Pirsig was > aware — with regard Kata: the correct way of doing things, of being, of > interacting with the world. There is Kata in Zen. and that is why it is not > the Ch'an Buddhism that was imported from China. I guess that Pirsig > resonated with this element, and that informed his writing and his selection > of title. > > The subtitle with regard 'values' has no grounding, as far as I can remember, > in any aspect of Zen or other Eastern mystical philosophy. > > Hope others have more positive things to say, as it sounds like this book was > valuable to you. > > davew > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Steve Smith wrote: >> Nick - >> >> I read it when it was fairly new and I was very young. The interwebs (I >> mean, whatever vapid popular culture rode on top of in those days) was >> aflutter and I was a voracious reader, a motorcycle owner/rider/maintainer, >> and I was enamored of the idea of eastern mysticism in spite of the harsh >> and distorting filters Western pop culture shoved it through before it could >> get to me. So of course i read it. And of course I was disappointed. >> >> I was hugely disappointed and annoyed by Pirsig/Phaedrus. I did not ride >> motorcycles for the reasons or in the way he did, nor did I maintain mine in >> his fashion nor did I hold it up in the way he did. Of course, Pirsig (and >> his character) were somewhat older than I was and had had more time in life >> to F* up... he just seemed like a self-indulgent F*-up to me, dragging his >> son through the worst of it along with him. I was also offended by all >> the hubub about the book... for the most part I "just didn't get it". It >> just seemed like more of our pop-culture's need to elevate a quite base >> neopatriarchy: (e.g. Hemingway, Kerouac, HS Thompson, Abbey, etc) >> >> When Mary moved here about 4 years ago, we (re)read ZAMM together. In the >> intervening years I had learned a lot more about mental illness including >> having direct experience with people who had endured a great deal of it, up >> to and including Electroshock Therapy. I had also grown out of my >> motorcycle riding identity (in my 50s) but still held onto fetishizing the >> spirit of something as simple and "easy" to maintain as a (classic) >> motorcycle (or auto). I had also read a lot more Greek (and other >> Western/Eastern) Philosophy in the intervening years and had my own ideas >> about "Quality" including Christopher Alexander's ineffable "Quality Without >> a Name". >> >> I appreciated ZAMM/Pirsig/Phaedrus a lot more the second time but still felt >> like it was somewhat self-indulgent. To the extent that I know of Pirsig's >> subsequent unfolding of a life (including his son's death) I felt more >> sympathetic to what I had judged as F*up. It also helps that I went on to >> F* up my own life repeatedly and sometimes even recursively (yet I am still >> here, being self-indulgent and judgemental). >> >> this was a nice obituary blog entry: >> >> https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/ >> >> Another couple of (re) reads we did together were: >> >> Moby Dick >> >> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich >> >> >> >> On 8/19/21 1:46 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Dave: >>> >>> As usual, my [conscious] motives were not so high falutin’. As usual I am >>> trying to get others to think with me because I cannot think alone. To the >>> extent that I am a philosopher, it probably is because of that book and I >>> am really interesting in the role it played in the lives of others. For >>> instance, one friend told me that his response was to go out and buy a >>> motor cycle. Also I am interested in what a second reading, 40 plus years >>> would be like for each of you. It was quite a revelation to me. So, as >>> general, you give my conscious mind too much credit. I can’t speak for the >>> unconscious one. >>> >>> Stephen, >>> >>> If you mean, the original Greek figure, no I don’t. He’s briefly described >>> somewhere in zamm as a sophist, but that’s already more than I know. >>> >>> N >>> >>> Nick Thompson >>> thompnicks...@gmail.com >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>> >>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2021 3:26 PM >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM" >>> >>> >>> >>> Nick, >>> >>> do you know Phaedrus? >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 7:46 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I wonder if Pirsig’s *Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance *was a >>>> thing for any of you, and if you would be interested in pursuing a thread >>>> about it and, if so, if you would be willing to get it down off your shelf >>>> and flip through it, looking for the parts you loved and the parts you >>>> hated. >>>> >>>> N >>>> >>>> Nick Thompson >>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com >>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>> >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
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