And the elephant in the room is (.. sound of drums please ..) : "All [groups] are created equal"
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 at 03:21, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Eric, > > Again, you appear to confound similarity with equality. *Ex hypothesi* > and NOT because I am a communist, let us invent a world in which we each > serve different functions but are all paid exactly the same for serving > them. That would be a world in which there was maximum dissimilarity but > financial equality. Similarity has to with what we do; equality to do with > how it’s valued. > > > > Not you say that the world I just invented is too strange to be relevant. > But is it that much stranger than a world in which I stand talking > non-sense to a bunch of students for a pretty good salary while others of > my generation to get shot at in Vietnam for peanuts? Ditto you and Iraq. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles > *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2021 8:40 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal" > > > > Merle, > > I *am *deeply grateful for my life, which *is *extraordinarily privileged > in many ways. I'm not sure what deep remorse would have to do with it. > > > > Even were we to institute some rules that gave everyone in the world > historically extraordinary privileges, it would be a mistake to give > everyone the same extraordinary privileges. A world of diverse people > produces superior outcomes to a world of identical people. Any approach > that wants to deny that is not going to work out well. Any approach that > wants to try to give every single person the same life, is not a good idea. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:41 AM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefk...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Coming from different perspectives (missing: our interrelationship with > nature) hasn't ultimately offered us a good future, as well as an inability > to avoid war and addiction to weapons of mass destruction (including global > warming). I suggest that a new perspective for someone like Eric might be > looking around at his extraordinarily privileged life (his life defies the > human condition) and finding some way to express gratitude and remorse deep > within. > > > > On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 8:05 AM Eric Charles < > eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> wrote: > > " All persons would be created equally .. in a perfect world." > > > > Hard disagree. Perhaps in a perfect we would reduce the extreme inequities > a bit, but it would be a much less perfect world if we created actual full > equality. This is part of my long-standing disagreement with Nick's > attempts to flat-world inheritance. > > > > We are in a BETTER world because people had a variety of experiences > growing up. Some had a new bike magically appear for them one day. Some > sold lemonade all summer and got one themselves. Some never got the new > bike they wanted at all. Some never even got a used bike. Some were punched > and had their bikes stolen. I'm not talking about watching a sibling > literally starve to death... but I am talking about a broad range of > unequal personal and social starting places. We are a better world because > people live very different lives, pursuing very different goals, informed > by different experiences, and thereby coming at problems from very > different perspectives. > > > > "All people are created equal" is a claim about how we have socially > agreed to treat people *as if* they were "endowed by their creator" with > certain basic rights. Those are what is now called "negative rights", > rights not to have others interfere with you in certain ways. But in a > grand sense, people are not equal, and we wouldn't want them to be; it > would be disastrous if they were. > > > > As tempting as it is to arrogantly declare that the world would be a > better place if it everyone was just like me... I also know that's not > true. There is no individual for which it is true, not even one as amazing > as I, and not even one as amazing as you. > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:00 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Nick, > > I am not a metaphysicist to debate such things with you. Can just state > cold facts. > > All persons would be created equally .. in a perfect world. > > However, when the world they are born into is imbalanced, in actuality > their weightage depends on the circumstances of their birth and the larger > society(s) they are born into > > Attempts, by poiticians. to change that imbalance invariably create a cure > worse worse than the disease .. killing sparrows in China or introducing > rabbts to Australia. For instance, the *reverse discrimination* presently > practised in India against Brahmins has been taken to extraordinary lengths > by "vote bank" politics > > > Brahmins students are not eligible (barred in law) to apply for 87% of > seats in engineering or medical colleges in India. > > They must openly compete with the entire population of applicants for the > remaining 13% of seats > > To get admission into a top engineering college, a Brahmin student must > get at least 72 out of 90 multiple choice questions correct in what is > acknowledged to be one of the world's toughest entrance exams, whereas a > reserved category student can get in even after getting all 90 questions > wrong. > > > > So if I look at it dispassionately, the problem with gaining true equality > is politics and politicians. The misguided attemptsof the USA to promote / > inmpose "democracy" and "equality" in third world countries inevitably > results in the installation of dictatorships or puppets fronting for > miltary regimes as a reaction. Afghanistan is a good example of it. > > Sarbajit > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:34 AM <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Sarbajit, > > > > If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty > soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you > don’t mind. > > > > I believe the proposition in the subject line. Given the many ways that > proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it > must be defended. > > > > In what sense equal? Not in genes. Not in uterine environment. . Not in > early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in > financial capitol. Not in access to health care. Not in exposure to > future parasites. Not in almost anything that I can think of. So, why is > the aphorism not just nonsense. > > > > I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive > metaphysics about the moment of an individual’s creation. What follows is > flagrantly silly, but here it is. On my account, at the moment of birth a > soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body. By “person” in the > aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular > body. These assignments are at random. So, for good or ill, no soul > deserves the body it gets. I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good > uterine environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, > the draft deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of > demand for phd’s, my good education, even my FRIAM membership. They are > all consequences of that initial, random assignment. Now YOU may credit > me in some ways, because knowing that all these advantages have been > assigned to me may make me useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many > ways, and that may bring me the advantages of your association. But è I ç > do not èdeserveç those advantages. > > > > This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have > been allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the > advantaged, so that so much a soul’s future is not determined by that > moment of assignment. > > > > I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to > integrate it with my monism. The religious scholars among you might > recognize as some backass weird perversion of Calvinism. > > > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @merle110 > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
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