Yes, probably among the cleanest of syntaxes. I like it. To see it used more and better would be nice.
Logic makes the connections that can be made by it. (To say it better, which I think will relieve Glen of having to do it just to clear the irritation, _any given logic_ makes the connections that can be made within that logic.) Logic did not reveal to us that spacetime is Lorentzian and not Cartesian/Newtonian. That was new empirical input. E > On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:10 PM, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > In the same vein, as Frank, I suppose: Isn’t logic a form of syntax? > > N > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,B2UyeKdY2KA_d35EP_oVU45z4GzXhyPzOMshp94Jwpy_-svR3fGVDtdUyq7qXVnlDeFKLqN19D70CgqM1rvy2vttRXazT0ogbCaDBo2UMdwZ__kl_aLkf4W24gY,&typo=1> > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of Frank Wimberly > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:56 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning > > > >but largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to > >make, of believing one can argue from syntax to truth. > > Sometimes pure math reveals physics truth even when it wasn't the > mathematician's purpose. > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 6:55 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu > <mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote: >> If done carefully, this could be a good conversation to have. >> >> The trick will be to clear the underbrush of obvious stuff and not go >> endlessly in circles on that, in the hope of getting to something >> non-obvious. >> >> There is various obvious stuff about solitons (including some storms), roles >> of boundaries, and the use of statistical definitions of individuality >> instead of naive matter-bounding definitions. I have some extended sections >> on that kind of thing, to clear underbrush that is a needless mess in >> biology, in the book with Harold. Like many other things, I put it there as >> the one place I knew it would be safe from ever being seen by anybody. So >> far that has worked well. Other authors, who have been engaged in endless >> bickering for saying similar things in journal articles, have had to >> shoulder all that traffic while I have been left in peace to try to get on >> to something new. >> >> But let me reiterate to try to keep Nick at bay: I am a polysemist. The >> fact that a word gets used for several things does not lead me to think that >> they are the same or that it is merely a metaphor with one being primary and >> the others derivative. I am not saying anybody else has to hold that view, >> only giving notice that I do. >> >> Case in point (as setup): The back-and-forth on where the term “to have” >> came from now has me interested in that. The exchange with EricC pushed me >> off a foolish position I had been holding, and in that way cleared >> underbrush, but didn’t yet get to anything original (at least not >> contributed by me). >> >> Other inputs: >> >> — I am unlikely to believe any path in this conversation that believes >> itself to be either top-down or bottom-up. I think Glen’s oft-advocated >> middle-out is the only way to hope to have an insightful line of questioning. >> >> — Not having anything better to refer to, I like Gian-Carlo Rota’s notion >> (yes, Husser’s, or Heidegger’s, but the only version I have read directly is >> from Rota’s exposition) of “the unthematized” from phenomenology. Wherever >> these terms and their scopes come from, it seems to be there. Again I >> reiterate, for lack of having something better. >> >> — I know, from listening to them (but not committing to following them for >> 50 years, which I know is the minimal price of admission) that the Buddhists >> believe they have the Whole Story on this, and that it is much better than >> Rota’s “unthematized”. But I have no way to know if that is the case, or if >> they just feel better believing it is. >> >> — This is why I like very widely cross-linguistic evidence bases, and I tend >> to dislike the thesaurus-type analytical reasoning of senses and subsenses >> of meanings, which strikes me as useful within small bounds, but largely >> having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to make, of >> believing one can argue from syntax to truth. If one can get parallel >> emergences of polysemies from many distantly-related branches (preferably >> whole-world, if one had the databases), that seems more likely to be >> informative on the experience of being human and the character of living. >> >> — It does seem a bit suspicious to me that Buddhism is a canon. Any other >> commentary on living seems to change as the conditions of living change. So >> I have little resonance with bronze-age stories that murder is less of an >> offense against The Lord than eating shellfish, and I resonate much more >> easily with Irish folk tales for children than I do with many of their >> African counterparts. I also find what counts as argument by Plato >> interesting but completely mystifying. Of course the Buddhists would answer >> that their great eternity of reality was never perturbed by the ripples on a >> pond the life course of this planet, so why shouldn’t some Indians and >> Tibetans have come to discover the whole thing and final word in a few >> thousand years at a particular era in human history. To me that position is >> tautological, and asserted by many religions, so I don’t see how to say >> anything useful to engage with it. Happily, they have no reason to care >> what I think, about that or anything else, so they can go on living in peace >> and doing what they want. >> >> To end, because I need to go to a meeting: I don’t think the use of >> “individual” in psychology is super-close to the notion of being >> individuated as a cell, organism, soliton, hurricane, etc. There can be >> some simple stuff to look for as overlaps, but I feel like the low-hanging >> fruit in that is all underbrush, which any college undergrad does staying up >> too late in gab sessions because doing your classwork is too tedious. It >> would be good to somehow see that we can recognize what much of that is, >> agree that the obvious things aren’t too controversial or very informative, >> and try to get past them. I know with certainty I will be proved wrong in >> believing that is possible. >> >> But, still the topic is a good one, >> >> Eric >> >> >> >>> On Sep 2, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm >>> <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote: >>> >>> A deep dive into the theory of reincarnation, Vedic version, reveals that >>> the individual IS " simply a node in a system of interacting forces." The >>> material aspect of that node, the incarnation, acts as a kind of inertial >>> persistence - the forces repeat, moment to moment' the highly similar body >>> with accompanying mental illusions of self. When the material body >>> decomposes, the forces that gave rise to it do not and, with some degree of >>> probability, give rise to a variant of the same entity at some point in the >>> future. That second 'individual' is, to some statistical degree, the same >>> individual previously incarnated but definitely not a clone — hence >>> re-incarnation. >>> >>> But ultimately, all are nodes in systems of interacting forces. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 4:09 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> EricS asked: >>>> >>>> What am I but an individual? >>>> >>>> Could you simply be a unique node in a system of interacting forces? >>>> >>>> I have long wanted to write an essay as a psychologist to a meteorology >>>> journal entitled “Should we name storms? >>>> >>>> The first part of the essay argues that we shouldn’t name them because >>>> storms, unlike humans, are not proper individuals. Ie the forces that >>>> move them are not the forces that define them. >>>> >>>> The second part argues that we should name them because humans are, in >>>> fact,, like storms, each one defined by the particular forces that act >>>> upon it. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> Nick Thompson >>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,6K-BylMLdNxb8DSP6nGmKKFojRxz62aTnShv8kLA9iqONITOdc8zXEfRa8StAS6sZvQo7tW_JrNr3-_NekQxdY_cqVT0UFgMwmYcmaenj-o,&typo=1&ancr_add=1> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >>>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 5:58 PM >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:41 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >>>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I was made to take piano lessons for five years. I did minimal >>>> > practice, but still hated it and the idea of it. I can’t do it all now, >>>> > and don’t wish I could. Don’t tell me what is important. I will >>>> > prioritize what I want. >>>> >>>> I am imagining I see a through-line here, for several threads. >>>> >>>> We take individuality for granted; after all, what else can I be but an >>>> individual? (The Buddhists will get all energized that that view is what >>>> is sending the world to hell.) >>>> >>>> But being an individual isn’t easy. One can’t do it passively. One has >>>> to constantly fight off the world’s encroachment to be an individual. >>>> Hence elbowing for space, just to elbow for space, is probably innate. >>>> >>>> There is a line, I think somewhere in Bible/Job/ that I have always liked >>>> and used, even though the book as a whole isn’t gripping to me, like >>>> something from an alien species, and could sort-of be about making >>>> almost-any point. It was: >>>> >>>> “Why dost thou kick against the pricks?” >>>> >>>> I remember I was all in a prowl over getting an idiot-review of a paper, >>>> and in the mood that that puts me in, that I am eager to meet the reviewer >>>> with an A-10. I wandered into the SFI kitchen to encounter Walter >>>> Fontana, always for me a comforting presence that the world would continue >>>> to have at least one interesting person in it, no matter what else >>>> happened. I was unloading on him, because the only time I am funny is >>>> when I am really annoyed, and I don’t want all that to be lost, like >>>> Rutger Hauer says, “like tears, in rain” with nobody to enjoy it. About 2 >>>> minutes in, I had Walter laughing out loud, and the culmination of my >>>> relation to reviewers was: >>>> >>>> Why dost thou kick against the pricks? Because they piss me off! >>>> >>>> But back to the point: do we learn anything about the nature of >>>> individuality? >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> > That said, a vaccine is passive and takes no attention. >>>> > >>>> >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:29 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com >>>> >> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or >>>> >> face prison >>>> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c> >>>> >> om%2fpolitics%2f2021%2fsep%2f01%2fjudge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to >>>> >> -read-classic-literature-or-face-prison&c=E,1,M9NK9YVSpDUE3ATp1xxsWZ6 >>>> >> 6fJfv7F41fZ3yhs00aXqlOlf6_8OBrRKThjnj4inZPPTHFPQ7WNCTHfJ5cMMP63OghVQR >>>> >> 2wAsowx7Pdk58b0,&typo=1 >>>> >> >>>> >> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and >>>> >> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap >>>> >> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk >>>> >> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, >>>> >> preventing collegial conversation. >>>> >> >>>> >> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. >>>> >> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to >>>> >> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate >>>> >> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just >>>> >> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under. >>>> >> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid >>>> >> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he >>>> >> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn? >>>> >> >>>> >> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] >>>> >> in writing: >>>> >> >>>> >> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems >>>> >> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic >>>> >> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, >>>> >> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that >>>> >> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers >>>> >> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral >>>> >> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional >>>> >> commitment to the world." >>>> >> >>>> >> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by >>>> >> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters >>>> >> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the >>>> >> court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and >>>> >> Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more >>>> >> dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more >>>> >> catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> [ψ] >>>> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324 >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324> >>>> >> %2f9781351001885&c=E,1,kUEPqU5HqAHoV8Du4pwpdvHxqK_cJ1fOdlepXjYSapoLr0 >>>> >> ahTnkT06xd9Ll5tgJAyZ0h6glDWPK6a_eBJPD9GwxJm6FJFc-LbP5e9rdDCai8Wg,,&ty >>>> >> po=1 >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >>>> >> >>>> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >>>> >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,s6yEabislhhMDVoxlhSf7syPf5TT5Q4D3F4QeULGR_SKUjPOSFlF6cEp1A5go47SjASIxX41meopZkT9ag-NhmJkWKlwWmQBuak503-Z8HHa2jOopTHis696&typo=1> >>>> >> un/subscribe >>>> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmail >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmail> >>>> >> man%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2f2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,BIaZjYXL2iMY77V8vtxdQUGWOEXjbY_RGhNmu_QzeSnOwj-ucYgqlT9Mj8YLDxbAqqugvjNbBYL57hMx5ihQYOvCzNq6ADx8npTGc5wkuFro2ilg&typo=1>&c=E,1,n5QcC5BxTTInuyi0FGLlhrMioE2x >>>> >> zUT3iEeisulPZhW8zoxyb0S29h4t9DrRMXcDN1ZPSdoYp-JjKCqLrR6EerStKzUa_yqH- >>>> >> xxD2YaXvlg,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC >>>> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogsp >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogsp> >>>> >> ot.com >>>> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fot.com%2f&c=E,1,gGwPxncRHSehEgUFWbklc9wnBjUsYGd7iplSvRm2y5fYOVTSyTiwRXC_ud77Dz0sqEiFB5zAfUSFME7WZP1em_fcrNlpMRDlzSn5YaC73UrKJOuuybNiNxl9OQ,,&typo=1>%2f&c=E,1,Emy9ffjRpHPFfElpitvV6ESNfaaiVFF3ozw8CYPbIJBvrCds-DCwa >>>> >> 5gRrBbtHQcynrViAIM2_beiNJto9xJpD3kW_RT67QX9XI_MKOwbBCv1zA,,&typo=1 >>>> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> >> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>> > - 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