In the case that the mother has bonded with the child she is carrying – if only being invested in the idea of having a child -- then Nick’s test has been passed.
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 1:04 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture Once a child-candidate has bonded with a caregiver it is a child. I believe fetuses can be calmed by their mothers' voices. But I probably heard that from my sister's. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:16 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote: To experience x is to stand in relation to X To experience an experience is to stand in relation to the standing in relation to x. Etc. Pragmatists don’t worry about the first anything. There was, after all, only one of them, and so the topic has no generality. Once a child-candidate has bonded with a caregiver it is a child. One dose of oxytocin and its over. Not surprisingly, neo-nates stand in relation to the people around them from the start, indeed from before the start, on some accounts. Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 2:09 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture You're sinking into the homunculus bog. With or without mosquitos. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:05 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote: Nick’s theory: “Reduce” consciousness to higher levels of material organization. Or, when he is being a ferocious monist, to an experience that is labeled as an experience of another experience. Nick’s task for today: Finish his 2020 income tax. Ugh N Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 1:45 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture Here’s what I think: Scientists who talk about consciousness being non-computable are not scientists. From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 10:33 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture I am looking forward to hear Nick's theory about it. None of the recent books is completely convincing: + “Rethinking Consciousness: A Scientific Theory of Subjective Experience” by Michael Graziano + “The Feeling of Life Itself: Why Consciousness Is Widespread but Can’t Be Computed" by Christof Koch + “Out of My Head: On the Trail of Consciousness" by Tim Parks https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/do-we-have-minds-of-our-own -J. -------- Original message -------- From: Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> Date: 9/11/21 18:53 (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture It’s physical or it is not. What’s it gonna be? From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:51 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture Consciousness has multiple meanings. What does it mean in Wimberly's conjecture, the thing that flickers to life when you wake up in the morning, or the moment when you consider yourself to be you, or the part of the mind which you are aware of but which is not the one driving the boat (according to David Eagleman) ? -J. -------- Original message -------- From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> Date: 9/11/21 17:14 (GMT+01:00) To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of > consciousness. Well, depends on what you mean by reduction. If you limit reduction to accounts in terms of events at lower levels or organization, then I absolutely agree, and we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that? Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 4:18 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur 😁 --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: I should have known to hide the drugs from the addicts. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16 PM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur It's your fault for focusing on reading ability instead of some less subjective trait. Had you focused on, say, tool use <https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal> or somesuch, then we may not have gone there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding? We always go there. On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > How did we get started on consciousness again? The thread started with some > snark about the power of GWAS associations.. > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > *On Behalf Of *Frank > Wimberly > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:56 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of > consciousness. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ > <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > It's no more profound than any other multi-order composition. It's part > of the work we have to do for mechanistic modeling of higher order > constructs. What galls me is that we can talk about it so much without > discussing the mechanisms of construction. > > The details of composing from genes, through physiological structures, > through interoception, to very high order attributes like "reading ability" > are interesting, regardless of any profundity. But some of us need to be > reminded of how the details build the narrative. Like Magic Eye pictures, the > Necker cube, or the lady/vase thing, what might seem banal without the larger > frame can seem profound when the discourse is enlarged ... when it all snaps > into place. > > > On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Fine, the goal is some composition of functions and it is all > interdependent. > > > > Sure. Of course. Why is this so profound to y’all? > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> *On > Behalf Of *thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 10:20 AM > > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Which takes us back to thermostats, intentionality, intensional > inexistence, Sober’s epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s law: The goal is > never the function. If you build a bird that measures competing male robins > in terms of “brown stick with red fluff” you eventually get an ethologist who > gets that bird to attack by providing only brown sticks with red fluff. > > > > > > > > See. It’s all connected. > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > Nick Thompson > > > > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>> > > > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>> > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>>> *On > Behalf Of *Steve Smith > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 12:30 PM > > *To:* friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Sometimes all you need is a good aphorism > > > > https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law> > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law>> > > > > or maybe boost it up with a cartoon > > > > https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/> > <https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>> > > > > I can't help but wonder if there's an analog of Goodhart's law > lurking, here. > > > > > > > > > > > > On September 9, 2021 2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels > <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> wrote: > > > > Or they are reprogramming their people to be smarter! > > > > (Actually, deCODE is owned by Amgen now.) > > > > > > > > Selection is already occurring, so it isn't as if this is some > sci-fi thing. > > > > > > > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/> > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/>> > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On > Behalf Of David Eric Smith > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 2:12 PM > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Aha! This is why Iceland has the highest per-capita fraction > of published authors in the world. I had assumed it was the weather…. > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels > <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > That can be screened as well with a large population-wide > survey such has been done in the UK or Iceland. > > > > Of course, it is unlikely that complex behaviors will be > governed by isolated mutations, so the task is to look for highly predictive > motifs (e.g. regular expressions). > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM > > > > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Ha! Now you're trolling. The answer is: "because the sites > that generate reading ability (or whatever) *also* generate other > 'abilities'", with "abilities" in scare quotes because many abilities are > considered bad ... like the ability of a pimply faced white dude to shoot up > a church or blow up a federal building. > > > > > > > > In addition to polyphenism, there's robustness. If more > than 1 site generates the same functional ability (reading), then do we write > them all? ... just one of them? ... a probabilistically predictive handful of > them? > > > > > > > > On 9/9/21 10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > So find the sites that correspond to reading ability, > or whatever, and WRITE them. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM > > > > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > I was alerted to this article this morning: > > > > > > > > Can Progressives Be Convinced That Genetics Matters? > > > > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con> > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con>> > > > > v > > > > inced-that-genetics-matters > > > > > > > > It should delight those amongst us who rant about the > "woke". 8^D But it dovetails nicely with the fraught concept of equality in > the other thread. > > > > > > > > Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the BIAPT announced their > early career prize winner Emily McTernan: > > > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo> > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo>> > > > > rpoliticalthought.ac.uk<http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk> > <http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk>%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd > > > > > 6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG > > > > 0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1 > > > > er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/ > > > > > > > > "In her forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan develops her > work on social equality further, to advance a pioneering conceptual account – > and robust normative defence – of the phenomenon of ‘taking offence’. > Therein, McTernan contends, we should understand taking offence, under > appropriate conditions, as a civic virtue rather than a vice, as an emotion > that embodies the resistance of social inequalities within a community." > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > From about a cancer rate of 10% (without mutation) > to 50% (with) but it depends on the BRCA variant. > > > > > > > > > https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca>> > > > > n > > > > c > > > > er.htm > > > > > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > a > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > n > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > cer.htm> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank Wimberly > <wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the Braca gene that little correlated with > breast cancer? > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Frank C. Wimberly > > > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > > > > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > > > > > > > 505 670-9918 > > > > Santa Fe, NM > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus Daniels > <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah, it is hard to get excited about > “unusual” variance. Modern > > > > classification algorithms like gradient > boosting make it possible > > > > to predict phenotypes, and to me that is a lot > more interesting > > > > (and still possible to deconstruct).____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>>> *On > Behalf Of *Eric Charles > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 3:53 PM > > > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>>> > > > > *Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and also the > realities of biological complexity.... -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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