Dave, btw: I was too quick with the “but” and passed over the “yes, “ part.
Your characterization of decompiling native competences that operate on many variables, to bring them under a kind of willed control, was a really helpful way to express the aims of some of these contemplative projects. That one will stay with me. Eric > On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:48 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > David Eric Smith wrote: > > "I cannot juggle hundreds of variables, and produce a result that would fail > _any_ test for randomness. I can conceive that maybe there are people smart > enough to do that, but cannot imagine any-wise what it would feel like to be > one of them." > > But . . . . every human being does exactly that, all the time, more or less > effortlessly — certainly below the threshold of "conscious" awareness. > Billions of variables, including certain cell receptors "detecting" and > responding to quantum effects (like changes in spin induced by magnetic > fields). > > Some Asian philosophies (Jnana Yoga, Tibetan Tantra) and most of the > Alchemical literature can be read as efforts to "decompile" this ability, > make it conscious, and apply it in "ordinary reality." > > davew > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, at 9:28 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> Gilding the lily, since I don’t disagree with anything that has specifically >> been said. >> >> I have felt like, somewhere between the deliberate distortion of Emerson >> that reads “consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds” >> (Fun ref see >> https://www.lawfareblog.com/foolish-consistency-hobgoblin-little-minds-metadata-stay >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.lawfareblog.com%2ffoolish-consistency-hobgoblin-little-minds-metadata-stay&c=E,1,eDi2-qPUJiCHaxBuHu6hEtsX5zACULC0rSwdyjZWlqtz3g9dMx-Srjv0GOmSBli_E0wTCeTWHgyMkctCMC8qnJcRvftKmEVeHpB2eVddlwJ2NA,,&typo=1> >> ) >> and what Scott Aaronson might call “the blankfaces of consistency”, >> there should be a sort of Herb Simon Watchmaker’s consistency. The ability >> to check a form for consistency — even if I am alert that the system within >> which I am checking might be subject to overruling or revision — allows me >> to get past one thing and go to the next. To clip together a sub-component >> of the watch and set it on the shelf, while assembling other sub-components, >> or to take the sub-components and assemble them relative to each other >> without having to constantly actively maintain the innards of each. >> >> To somebody with my innate limitations, that seems among the most valuable >> things in the world. >> >> DaveW wrote this fabulous paean to never calling anything done, some months >> ago. I can’t resurrect the text, and on my best living day could not >> compose its equal, but the gist was that sciences in which one arrives at >> conclusions are the pastimes of trivial minds. Real Men do anthropology, >> where nothing is ever closed. In a lovely rant on what a day in the life of >> a Real Man is like, a sentence contained a clause I am pretty sure I do have >> verbatim: “ . . . , juggling hundreds of variables, . . . “. >> >> I cannot juggle hundreds of variables, and produce a result that would fail >> _any_ test for randomness. I can conceive that maybe there are people smart >> enough to do that, but cannot imagine any-wise what it would feel like to be >> one of them. >> >> It seems it must be possible in this sense to cling to consistency like a >> life-raft, yet not elevate it to aa religious icon. After all, life rafts >> only keep you alive, and in the big sweep of things, that isn’t _all_ that >> important. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >>> On Oct 5, 2021, at 11:56 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Yeah, I'm perfectly aligned with the freak among freaks sentiment, though >>> I'd argue we *do* live in that world, we just deny it with our false >>> beliefs. "The problem with communication is the illusion that it exists." >>> >>> But the more important part of the argument surrounds whether consistency, >>> itself, is a matter of degree or kind. The analog world is full of graded >>> [in]consistency. You see it a lot with artifacts resulting from welding, >>> baking, brewing, etc. ... I even saw it often with the level 3 drafting at >>> lockheed. Any inconsistencies resulting from our designs, the effete >>> knowledge engineers, were *easily* overcome by the gritty on-the-ground >>> engineers ... like smoothing out burrs or gluing together pieces that don't >>> quite fit. >>> >>> In the special case of refined, crisply expressed propositions of digital >>> computation, inconsistency finding becomes a (perhaps the) powerful tool. >>> Debugging a serial program relies on it fundamentally. But it's softened a >>> bit in parallel algorithms. Inconsistency is broken up into multiple, yet >>> still crisp, types (race conditions, deadlocks, etc.). As approach "the >>> real world" and move away from digital computation, it seems, to my >>> ignorant eye, that [in]consistency softens more and more. Whether that >>> softening takes the form of a countable set of types or something denser, I >>> don't know. But it definitely takes on a different form. >>> >>> Discussions like Frank and EricS are having about the stability of a limit >>> point (never mind the ontological status of that point) get at this nicely. >>> If you change the frame entirely (e.g. move to position-momentum) and the >>> "inconsistency" of the singularities *moves* (or disappears entirely), then >>> a focus on consistency is not as powerful of a tool. The focus becomes one >>> of which frame expresses the target domain "less inconsistently" ... aka >>> with fewer exceptions to the rule. >>> >>> Yes, I know I've completely abused the word and its normal meaning. >>> >>> On 10/4/21 12:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> I agree with some of that. I mentioned the dependently typed programming >>>> language as one technology to know when I am being inconsistent. It >>>> doesn't mean I stop everything to resolve the inconsistency, but I might >>>> point the headlights in some other direction to avoid the inconsistency >>>> (breadth first search instead of depth first). Inconsistency finding is >>>> a tool, and preferably a semi-automated one. >>>> >>>> I'd rather have the option of being a depth first searcher and not worry >>>> about shelter and food and health care. I'm not talented enough to be >>>> among the small number of people that can survive (adequately) doing that >>>> sort of thing. I think I wouldn't even like it in general, even if I >>>> were. I don't like being the person that says something is irrelevant >>>> because everything is irrelevant. I'd like to be a freak among billions >>>> of freaks that all admire the accomplishments of other freaks. This is >>>> not the world we live in, though. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >>>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>> Sent: Monday, October 4, 2021 10:16 AM >>>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Newborn Heart Rate >>>> >>>> OK. But academia is in serious trouble, not least exhibited by the rise of >>>> populism and anti-intellectual distrust of those who might be attracted to >>>> depth-first search. >>>> >>>> Another story: At the last salon, an entomologist asked me "Why do you >>>> know so much philosophy?" My guess is he was actually trying to politely >>>> criticize my incessant concept-dropping, referring to oblique discussions >>>> that only occur amongst such depth-first people. The answer is I don't >>>> know any philosophy. I'm the worst kind of tourist, trampling endangered >>>> species while snapping selfies on my iPhone. >>>> >>>> But the deeper answer is that we don't need the academy anymore. What we >>>> need are social safety nets that facilitate the diverse exploration of the >>>> information field splayed out before us. If an unemployed snowboarder >>>> wants to do the work to propose a new theory of everything, so be it. I'm >>>> willing to sacrifice some of my income to help that happen, even if, or >>>> perhaps because it may eventually be found contradictory to some other ToE >>>> somewhere. But a consistency hobgoblin would nip that nonsense in the bud >>>> at the first hint of contradiction ... like a blankface academic advisor >>>> in some Physics department at some elitist institution. >>>> >>>> A focus on consistency is nothing more than subculture gatekeeping >>>> <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping >>>> <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping>>. >>>> >>>> On 10/4/21 10:01 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> In some depth first search one might find a sub-problem that was >>>>> uncrackable. If it is one of 100 problems to solve, it is dumb to get >>>>> hung-up on it, especially if it is of no practical significance. But >>>>> it is a problem that will attract a certain kind of (autistic) academic >>>>> attention as well. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." >>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >>> >>> >>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >>> un/subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,7f2mPq52aCiNP-NOFihSaR-cg_kz1iAkDMpygFlJfkcSgmEZmEFic7x62k1cZn98hMplDRUf7uz95gbzVN3rKoTgwWmKH46EfJ8sTtv1&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,7f2mPq52aCiNP-NOFihSaR-cg_kz1iAkDMpygFlJfkcSgmEZmEFic7x62k1cZn98hMplDRUf7uz95gbzVN3rKoTgwWmKH46EfJ8sTtv1&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,MomHJhYAIbAGPpxMBmUS3Ni9pCKbgGErtd46zkPFkQf2j-muY5IANU5y7QJpsNrH0lQXfle6j44F-jxs5eeUUX6KitPZlGLQZUQcy9q1NaaVMA4,&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,MomHJhYAIbAGPpxMBmUS3Ni9pCKbgGErtd46zkPFkQf2j-muY5IANU5y7QJpsNrH0lQXfle6j44F-jxs5eeUUX6KitPZlGLQZUQcy9q1NaaVMA4,&typo=1> >>> archives: >>> 5/2017 thru present >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,dwZL0XPERidEln6ak4dQwZ2pi8qaqBY_64JWdl_o-CrDSu2V8E0Dy9QaTmHOrVvw3bOxdJwbiUjVsjDceZnYl0NwzUPoDwlOoVOuncTMoNHFBg,,&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,dwZL0XPERidEln6ak4dQwZ2pi8qaqBY_64JWdl_o-CrDSu2V8E0Dy9QaTmHOrVvw3bOxdJwbiUjVsjDceZnYl0NwzUPoDwlOoVOuncTMoNHFBg,,&typo=1> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,XufyiUxp--ST5iB93qvWo0nAyFkxCAZ5PUqALr97V3taTMIKYtjTNYZcIC6TfXGL6wvb2GZKWlexwkUNR_ZEWYkyZK4G3Xk1scJr-PT_DLH6SH-Oy18WQlmtjSI,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZL1vm39n6Qsa8WTV0E4Mv2IXGtSvloAQZteMzlVS9dAqKSmuW1qKcU76V87vaRBbNxQw2leebmocTGFVGaEYNxG0rHIdddxG95Y1bORUep4,&typo=1> >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,pUxvnqqTi91I4q8L9TZeytpo-JpWre04JYF3vPyXv99faBGavRkusqJl42FdfaaDb0fWw_zld6RXg0TA7EmkUMNBY7gcmfRTH-rzGfAsHFd1dT8IBbRq&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,WVyn1pjemhXMljSxsP-NbfGWi8iN_BUv_Z4hqB3Vl41lDJUZ98VqVryH7EocvbPSzseqL9UvYmxYJINYpi88Lo1HHe0bV1662RJmPuiUAeE4IJ8aHvPA&typo=1 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,WVyn1pjemhXMljSxsP-NbfGWi8iN_BUv_Z4hqB3Vl41lDJUZ98VqVryH7EocvbPSzseqL9UvYmxYJINYpi88Lo1HHe0bV1662RJmPuiUAeE4IJ8aHvPA&typo=1> > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,UCVcwucRl-MWHRfIP7nauFwcGCxfuIjWgVbgvSvufR4Sq2RrPQlyafs4oenxra2AHOQR14zFcDJBrQ5FTrjqJVy-zca1HSWjPLZ0Ns8E5r7yikK8_tw,&typo=1 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,UCVcwucRl-MWHRfIP7nauFwcGCxfuIjWgVbgvSvufR4Sq2RrPQlyafs4oenxra2AHOQR14zFcDJBrQ5FTrjqJVy-zca1HSWjPLZ0Ns8E5r7yikK8_tw,&typo=1> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,fX3Jg6L0BnlyxP-XCja6RUFHr4iWXjfjKLX0m6mqtUQN6QPWVKMb_16chPBE5Ij_0C5Z4ecbZRRoiK-mG8udHbCgsuGI1ChNGEKw6tkK&typo=1 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,fX3Jg6L0BnlyxP-XCja6RUFHr4iWXjfjKLX0m6mqtUQN6QPWVKMb_16chPBE5Ij_0C5Z4ecbZRRoiK-mG8udHbCgsuGI1ChNGEKw6tkK&typo=1> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/>
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