EricS and Glen, Sorry, again. Here is the short version. I apologize, again, for appending that great wadge of gunk.
I found the second Feferman even harder to understand than the first. Glen, can you give me a little help on what you meant by a languageless language. Thanks, all On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:09 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > Aw crap! The shortish answer that I meant to send had all sorts of junk > appended! Sorry. Will resend soon. [blush] > > Sent from my Dumb Phone > > On Jan 12, 2023, at 8:54 PM, Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Dear EricS, Glen, and anybody else who is following. > > Thank you so much for pitching in. As I have often said, I am incapable > of thinking alone, so your comments are wonderfully welcome. And thank you > also for confirming that what I wrote was readable. I am having to work in > gmail at the moment, which is , to me, an unfamiliar medium. > > First, Eric: I am trying to talk math-talk in this passage, so poetry is > not an excuse if I fail to be understood by you. > > *FWIW: as I have heard these discussions over the years, to the extent > that there is a productive analogy, I would say (unapologetically using my > words, and not trying to quote his) that Peirce’s claimed relation between > states of knowledge and truth (meaning, some fully-faithful representation > of “what is the case”) is analogous to the relation of sample estimators in > statistics to the quantity they are constructed to estimate. We don’t have > any ontological problems understanding sample estimators and the quantities > estimated, as both have status in the ordinary world of empirical things. > In our ontology, they are peers in some sense, but they clearly play > different roles and stand for different concepts.* > > I like very much what you have written here and think it states, perhaps > more precisely than I managed, exactly what I was trying to say. I do want > to further stress the fact that if a measurement system is tracking a > variate that is going to stabilize in the very long run, then it will on > average approximate that value with greater precision the more measures are > taken. Thus, not only does the vector of the convergence constitute > evidence for the location of the truth, the fact that there is convergence > is evidence that there is a truth to be located. Thus I agree with you > that the idea behind Peirce's notion of truth is the central limit theorem. > > Where we might disagree is whether there is any meaning to truth beyond > that central limit. This is where I found you use of "ontology" so > helpful. When talking about statistics, we are always talking about > mathematical structures in experience and nothing beyond that. We are > assuredly talking about only one kind of thing. However, I see you > wondering, are there things to talk about beyond the statistical structures > of experience? I hear you wanting to say "yes" and I see me wanting to > say "no". > > God knows ... and I use the term advisedly ... my hankering would seem to > be arrogant to the point of absurdity. Given all the forms of discourse in > which the words "truth" and "real" are used, all the myriad language games > in which these words appear as tokens, how, on earth, could I (or Peirce) > claim that there exists one and only one standard by which the truth of any > proposition or the reality of any abject can be demonstrated? I think I > have to claim (and I think Peirce claims it) that whatever people may say > about how they evaluate truth or reality claims, their evaluation always > boils down to an appeal to the long run of experience. > > Our difference of opinion, if we have one, is perhaps related to the > difference of opinion between James and Peirce concerning the relation > between truth as a believed thing and truth as a thing beyond the belief of > any finite group of people. James was a physician, and presumably knew a > lot about the power of placebos. He also was a ditherer, who famously took > years to decide whom to marry and agonized about it piteously to his > siblings. James was fascinated by the power of belief to make things true > and the power of doubt to make them impossible. Who could jump a chasm who > did not believe that he could jump a chasm! For Peirce, this sort of > thinking was just empty psychologizing. Truth was indeed a kind of > opinion, but it was the final opinion, that opinion upon which the > operation of scientific practices and logical inquiry would inevitably > converge. > > EricC, the Jamesian, will no doubt have a lot to say about this, including > that it is total garbage. > > As for Fefferman, my brief attempt to learn enough about Fefferman to > appear intelligent led me to the website, > http://www.vipfaq.com/Charles%20Fefferman.html, which might be the > weirdest website I have ever gone to. I don't THINK that a language-free > language is my unicorn, but Glen NEVER says something for nothing, so I am > withholding judgement until he boxes my ears again. I think my unicorn may > be that all truth is statistical and, therefore, provisional. Literally: > a seeing into the future. > > Thanks again for helping out, you guys! > > Nick > > > > Consider, for a moment, the role of placebos in medicine. > > Consider the ritual of transubstantiation. At the moment that you sip it, > is the contents of the chalice Really "blood." > > *Peirce writes, "Consider what effects, which may have practical bearing, > the object of your conception to have. Then our conception of those > effects is our whole of our conception of the object.* > > "The Whole"?! Really? Now somebody of Peircean Pursuasion would point > out that, if a parishionner were to burst a blood vessel, and a doctor with > a transfusion kit were present, NObody would conceive that the patient > should b transfused with communion wine. Since causing instant death upon > tranfusion is not one of the conceivable consequences of the chalice > containing blood (leave aside immunity issues ), and is a conceivable > consequence of transfusing communion wine, we are warranted to say that, > despite what the practice of communion implies, the stuff in the challice > is wine not blood. > > But it's entirely conceivable that some parissioners, at theinstant of > communion, do conceive of the wine as blood, and experience changes of > themselves and teh world around them as a consequence of receiving > communion. > > Fork 1 here "The Whole"?! Really? Consider the phenomenon of a > _________________ effects. > > The juice here is what we think we are estimating. Are we estimating the > true state of affairs in some world we cannot more directly access or are > we estimating the final resting place of the statistic we are measuring. > My point, here, is that the latter is all we have. To the extent that > anything in experience is non-random (ie, some events are predictive of > other events), any mechanism that homes on these contingencies will be > selected if the consequences are of importance to reproduction of the > organism. we live in a mostly random world and to the extent that our > methods of inquiry are useful, further inquiry will probably narrow our > estimate of some property within finer and finer limits. This is a process > I would call inductive. > > Now I think, in your latter comments, you are getting at the fact that > this is only one kind of convergence,and is dependent on a prior > convergence concerning what identifies a substance as lithium. Before we > can determine the boiling point of lithium we have first to agree upon > which substances are lithium and which operations constitute "boiling". > These are decisions that are abductive in nature, and, to that extent are > less straight-forward. Lets say we are interested in determining the > boiling point of Li and we are sent looking for some li to biol. We come > accross a lump of grey metal witha dark finish in our lab drawer and we > want ot know if this is lithium. The logic here (light grey substance > with dark finish =? lithiumisthe logic ofabduction. That this first test > is positive will lead you toperform yet another abductive lest: is it > noticeably light when youbalance it in yourhadn, can you cut it withthe > plasticknife you brought home with your take-out lunch , etc. These tests > are similarly abductive (Li is light, theis substance is light, this > sjumbstance isli;Li is soft, this substance is soft, this substanve is Li. > When enough of these tests have come up positive you will declare the > substance to be Li an procede to measure its boiling point. (A similar > series of abductions willbe require to agree upon what constitutes > "boiling". > > *Lithium* (from Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: > λίθος, romanized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek>: > *lithos*, lit. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_translation> 'stone') > is a chemical element <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element> > with the symbol <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_(chemistry)> *Li* > and atomic number <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_number> 3. It is > a soft, silvery-white alkali metal > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali_metal>. Under standard conditions > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_temperature_and_pressure>, it is > the least dense metal and the least dense solid element. Like all alkali > metals, lithium is highly reactive > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_(chemistry)> and flammable, and > must be stored in vacuum, inert atmosphere, or inert liquid such as > purified kerosene or mineral oil. When cut, it exhibits a metallic luster > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luster_(mineralogy)>, but moist air > corrodes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion> it quickly to a dull > silvery gray, then black tarnish. It never occurs freely in nature, but > only in (usually ionic) compounds > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>, such as pegmatitic > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite> minerals, which were once the > main source of lithium. Due to its solubility as an ion, it is present in > ocean water and is commonly obtained from brines > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine>. Lithium metal is isolated > electrolytically <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis> from a > mixture of lithium chloride > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_chloride> and potassium chloride > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chloride>. > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 3:21 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> This smacks of Feferman's claim that "implicit in the acceptance of given >> schemata is the acceptance of any meaningful substitution instances that >> one may come to meet, but which those instances are is not determined by >> restriction to a specific language fixed in advance." ... or in the >> language of my youth, you reap what you sow. >> >> To Nick's credit (without any presumption that I know anything about >> Peirce), he seems to be hunting the same unicorn Feferman's hunting, >> something like a language-independent language. Or maybe something >> analogous to a moment (cf >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(mathematics))? >> >> While we're on the subject, Martin Davis died recently: >> https://logicprogramming.org/2023/01/in-memoriam-martin-davis/ As terse >> as he was with me when I complained about him leaving Tarski out of >> "Engines of Logic", his loss will be felt, especially to us randos on the >> internet. >> >> On 1/7/23 15:20, David Eric Smith wrote: >> > Nick, the text renders. >> > >> > You use words in ways that I cannot parse. Some of them seem very >> poetic, suggesting that your intended meaning is different in its whole >> cast from one I could try for. >> > >> > FWIW: as I have heard these discussions over the years, to the extent >> that there is a productive analogy, I would say (unapologetically using my >> words, and not trying to quote his) that Peirce’s claimed relation between >> states of knowledge and truth (meaning, some fully-faithful representation >> of “what is the case”) is analogous to the relation of sample estimators in >> statistics to the quantity they are constructed to estimate. >> > >> > We don’t have any ontological problems understanding sample estimators >> and the quantities estimated, as both have status in the ordinary world of >> empirical things. In our ontology, they are peers in some sense, but they >> clearly play different roles and stand for different concepts. >> > >> > When we come, however, to “states of knowledge” and “truth” as “what >> will bear out in the long run”, in addition to the fact that we must study >> the roles of these tokens in our thought and discourse, if we want to get >> at the concepts expressive of their nature, we also have a hideously more >> complicated structure to categorize, than mere sample estimators and the >> corresponding “actual” values they are constructed to estimate. For sample >> estimation, in some sense, we know that the representation for the >> estimator and the estimated is the same, and that they are both numbers in >> some number system. If we wish to discuss states of knowledge and truth, >> everything is up for grabs: every convention for a word’s denotation and >> all the rules for its use in a language that confer parts of its meaning. >> All the conventions for procedures of observation and guided experience. >> All the formal or informal modes of discourse in which we organize our >> intersubjective experience pools and >> > build something from them. All of that is allowed to “fluctuate”, as >> we would say in statistics of sample estimators. The representation scheme >> itself, and our capacities to perceive through it, are all things we seek >> to bring into some convergence toward a “faithful representation” of “what >> is the case”. >> > >> > Speaking or thinking in an orderly way about that seems to have many >> technical as well as modal aspects. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Eric >> > >> > >> >> On Jan 7, 2023, at 5:05 PM, Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com >> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> */The relation between the believed in and the True is the relation >> between a limited function and its limit. {a vector, and the thing toward >> which the vector points?] Ultimately the observations that the function >> models determine/**/the limit, but the limit is not determined by any >> particular observation or group of observations. Peirce believes that The >> World -- if, in fact, it makes any sense to speak of a World independent of >> the human experience -- is essentially random and, therefore, that >> contingencies among experiences that lead to valid expectations are rare. >> The apparition of order that we experience is due to the fact that such >> predictive contingencies--rare as they may be-- are extraordinarily useful >> to organisms and so organisms are conditioned to attend to them. Random >> events are beyond experience. Order is what can be experienced. /* >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,u7FgMP8vm4fHiTW0U3rgvPE9r2t5kIzf_xFQNMb3ARSlP_q5duEv4pYS3k-N_n8IulmaZfRYLq4ORWs5RoTsr-p3wuF5nmKjYs20FlmVPy0w&typo=1 >> < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,u7FgMP8vm4fHiTW0U3rgvPE9r2t5kIzf_xFQNMb3ARSlP_q5duEv4pYS3k-N_n8IulmaZfRYLq4ORWs5RoTsr-p3wuF5nmKjYs20FlmVPy0w&typo=1 >> > >> >> to (un)subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,alS3mZm4sNbe1T2YOOJrUAFbgFQF4hXahJvirMvxvkMIlTabCCwl4x6PztexlomWiKSo0YQkdLMDeKhjhZgR07MTyaRyGLFc9yB2yiMgOx7pJyGM2A,,&typo=1 >> < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,alS3mZm4sNbe1T2YOOJrUAFbgFQF4hXahJvirMvxvkMIlTabCCwl4x6PztexlomWiKSo0YQkdLMDeKhjhZgR07MTyaRyGLFc9yB2yiMgOx7pJyGM2A,,&typo=1 >> > >> >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,U2bOZpRyBVI0OWSG1o1ORsDLptqydGBNg9S9hwXgjhqfmB6Ccy7nZsqrjdflFIFIOe0mY9Ksbsho6d9Tb_vWD_L_zwHDBWxVL_fCVaL8omY6lon1Xw,,&typo=1 >> < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,U2bOZpRyBVI0OWSG1o1ORsDLptqydGBNg9S9hwXgjhqfmB6Ccy7nZsqrjdflFIFIOe0mY9Ksbsho6d9Tb_vWD_L_zwHDBWxVL_fCVaL8omY6lon1Xw,,&typo=1 >> > >> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,zLyeztLI0_7t9GJOJ6-IWmDod_-mGxqK_gNYa4zBLyOfuSyEwlGEnexGr18-SPiqlAdOs1MUuHjd4rIN62y7YwCbFq3FlVUvJyEmjicqIz9QCvAt&typo=1 >> < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,zLyeztLI0_7t9GJOJ6-IWmDod_-mGxqK_gNYa4zBLyOfuSyEwlGEnexGr18-SPiqlAdOs1MUuHjd4rIN62y7YwCbFq3FlVUvJyEmjicqIz9QCvAt&typo=1 >> > >> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ < >> http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> > >> > >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/