It means I think getting everyone to agree is probably impossible and unnecessary in any case.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:23 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > This would suggest to me either that you don't give a damn about the > matter or that you are a believer in Holy Individuality. > > So which is it? (};-)] > > N > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 9:17 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Resolution is not necessary for me. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our >>> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we >>> are in interaction with are conscious. >>> >>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do >>> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to >>> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution? >>> >>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the >>> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an >>> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what >>> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience. >>> >>> N >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson < >>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson < >>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no >>>>> rel)? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae - >>>>>> >>>>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I >>>>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be >>>>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other >>>>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to >>>>>> demonstrate >>>>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is >>>>>> watching"... >>>>>> showing off, being shy, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. >>>>>> Yesterday I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and >>>>>> purchased for about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the >>>>>> "feed other pets" market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little >>>>>> guys are normally fed to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters >>>>>> called "little fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the >>>>>> way home (just 30 mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once >>>>>> acclimatized and released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where >>>>>> the bigger fish live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort >>>>>> zone swimming "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the >>>>>> pump/recirculation feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the >>>>>> spillway swimming upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit >>>>>> of "swam and swam all over the dam, oh damn!" . >>>>>> >>>>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the >>>>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker >>>>>> than >>>>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I >>>>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter, >>>>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include >>>>>> exposing >>>>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to >>>>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies, >>>>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were >>>>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp >>>>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of >>>>>> size >>>>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for >>>>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count >>>>>> again >>>>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond >>>>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing >>>>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or >>>>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen >>>>>> both >>>>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds >>>>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the >>>>>> numbers >>>>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or >>>>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the >>>>>> circulation going in the coldest periods). >>>>>> >>>>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or >>>>>> the 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely >>>>>> name >>>>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of >>>>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they >>>>>> are >>>>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant >>>>>> of >>>>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand >>>>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a >>>>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in >>>>>> the >>>>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware >>>>>> (maybe >>>>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?). >>>>>> >>>>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world >>>>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in >>>>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, >>>>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>). >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a >>>>>> leaf-lettuce rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my >>>>>> windowsill. Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I >>>>>> find a way to help them float with their roots underwater and their >>>>>> growing >>>>>> leaf-cores to reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit >>>>>> slower/duller? than mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses >>>>>> (growing their roots into the water, growing their leaves into the >>>>>> sunlight/air), albeit slower? Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or >>>>>> if >>>>>> so barely, or perhaps just "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they >>>>>> are much if at all aware of me, much less my intentions of pulling them >>>>>> apart limb from limb to eat them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, >>>>>> on the other hand sings to her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive >>>>>> compared to when I am in charge of their water-offerings. I look >>>>>> forward >>>>>> to little fishies nibbling on their roots while offering them >>>>>> nitrogen-rich >>>>>> nutrients in the way all animals do. >>>>>> >>>>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are >>>>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the >>>>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though >>>>>> some >>>>>> are big on insects... >>>>>> >>>>>> (typing like nobody is reading).... >>>>>> >>>>>> - Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind >>>>>> in everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad >>>>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my >>>>>> keyboard. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to >>>>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire >>>>>> to >>>>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the >>>>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could >>>>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all >>>>>> self-conscious. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am >>>>>> going there now. >>>>>> >>>>>> N >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other >>>>>>>> dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions >>>>>>>> exhibited by >>>>>>>> Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some >>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>> of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial >>>>>>> expressions. Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs >>>>>>> for a >>>>>>> weekend; what would you tell me to look for?* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is >>>>>>> your request. around the 15th of July. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the >>>>>>> attribution of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking >>>>>>> for / >>>>>>> obtaining what they want. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a >>>>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and >>>>>>> places >>>>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, >>>>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 >>>>>>> these days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get >>>>>>> up. >>>>>>> Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been >>>>>>> tempted to vocalize herself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise >>>>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous >>>>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, >>>>>>> indefinitely, >>>>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> davew >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David, and all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I >>>>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am >>>>>>> sure I >>>>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here >>>>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at >>>>>>> Jackson, >>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also >>>>>>> utter a >>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where >>>>>>> I prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just >>>>>>> cant >>>>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it >>>>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he >>>>>>> feels >>>>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with >>>>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would >>>>>>> follow >>>>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we >>>>>>> disagree >>>>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we >>>>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your >>>>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an >>>>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that >>>>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, >>>>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original >>>>>>> attribution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> davew >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West < >>>>>>> profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, >>>>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch >>>>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had >>>>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other >>>>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted >>>>>>> with no concern. >>>>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa. >>>>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), >>>>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional >>>>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am >>>>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards >>>>>>> consensus of any kind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me: >>>>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at >>>>>>> Jackson, >>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also >>>>>>> utter a >>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> davew >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote: >>>>>>> > Nick - >>>>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness. >>>>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of >>>>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central >>>>>>> > creatures in my household. >>>>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. >>>>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach >>>>>>> as far >>>>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in >>>>>>> particular) does. >>>>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self >>>>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method >>>>>>> goes >>>>>>> >> something like this >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is >>>>>>> conscious. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the >>>>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only >>>>>>> allows >>>>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at >>>>>>> begging her >>>>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second >>>>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, >>>>>>> acts, >>>>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the >>>>>>> top of >>>>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive >>>>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an >>>>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the >>>>>>> world. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship >>>>>>> with" a >>>>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think >>>>>>> that is >>>>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she >>>>>>> frees them >>>>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is >>>>>>> conscious, >>>>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than >>>>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if >>>>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non >>>>>>> conscious >>>>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious >>>>>>> >> beings do. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know >>>>>>> that A, >>>>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of >>>>>>> motion, >>>>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and >>>>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or >>>>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their >>>>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who >>>>>>> like the >>>>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to >>>>>>> learn... >>>>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching >>>>>>> them the >>>>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of >>>>>>> the tip >>>>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very >>>>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal >>>>>>> observations). >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"... >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong >>>>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say >>>>>>> yes. >>>>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their >>>>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they >>>>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root >>>>>>> growth >>>>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this >>>>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be >>>>>>> entirely >>>>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual >>>>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a >>>>>>> branch or >>>>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then >>>>>>> perhaps >>>>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline >>>>>>> phenotypic >>>>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of >>>>>>> "proto-consciousness" >>>>>>> > to? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or >>>>>>> systems >>>>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their >>>>>>> own ways. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the >>>>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that >>>>>>> all of >>>>>>> > these are predators, no? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> > to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>>>> Clark University >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>>> Clark University >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>> Clark University >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>> Clark University >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/