Mine run a little more banal.
Behaviors exhibiting/defining consciousness
• Cat grooming himself
• Dog doing circles for a full minute before lying down
• Cat reflecting on whether he wants to stay in or go out when I crack the door
• Itch transfer (you have an itch somewhere, you scratch it, and you suddenly
itch somewhere else)
• Losing one's grip on, say, a glass on the table, dropping it, then
immediately catching it
• Tightening a nut just tight enough, but not too much (e.g. when you find
yourself without a torque wrench)
• Trying to deciding whether you've had enough to eat with food remaining on
the plate
I have anecdotes for all these. But they're not necessary.
On 7/22/24 08:25, Prof David West wrote:
We seem to have changed thread titles, but continuing the discussion ...
Nick said:/"I’m not so clear concerning what our common understanding of
self-consciousness is. Might need some more anecdotes to flesh that out."/ In that
vein, some additional anecdotes.
*I, is!*
As a native speaker of English, I read, speak, write, and think as if this assertion
is inescapably true. Weak attempts to learn other languages have not resulted in
much difference, although Arabic created a wisp of an impression that the assertion
might be escaped, and Japanese (the Kanji, not Hirigana or Katakana) definitely
created a deep suspicion. But I was never fluent enough to 'think' in either
language, so I do not know."
*I. Illusion.*
Decades ago, I practiced the Zen Koan meditation, 'what am I'. Any answer posed to the question is wrong and
eliminated; as each answer is an attribute of a physical organism or some kind of mental/social construct.
Eventually, /*"I" */diminishes to */"i" /*and ultimately to */"Is."/* The last,
however is a property of existence/Reality not something 'apart from' or 'part of'. Very difficult to put
into words obviously as the experience is an absence of something, not a thing itself.
*Non-sensationalism*
While a student at Macalester, some of us went over to the U of M to experience the absence of sensations in
a deprivation tank. Can the "I" experiencing sensations be separated and directly apprehended? In
my experience, and via reports from others involved in the experiment, NO. Although greatly diminished,
sensations were still present. Perhaps nerve endings firing at random, perhaps a passing neutrino triggering
the release of a single photon. Something, some vestige of "I-ness" was still there, still
interpreting (poorly) the paucity of stimuli. Time distortion, "I have been in here for hours, did
someone forget to let me out?" Emotions, primarily fear and panic. No glimpse of*'me',* however.
*Non-sensationalism on acid*
*/_Wow!_/* Jung was correct; there is a vast and rich collective unconscious. "I" am a growing
body of all that "I have been." Both the collective and the idiosyncratic is a joy to wander
about, marvel at, and (re)experience."
*Seeking Self Consciousness*
On several occasions I have ingested 4-6 Hoffmans [a Hoffman is 150 microgams, the amount he took
on Bicycle Day] of acid, with preparation akin to that of practitioners of lucid dreaming, i.e.,
preparing the mind to have a directed experience. Specifically, to "see," directly
apprehend and experience, one's Self. The journey begins with the same kind of 'tour' of idio-self
and collective-self as the previous story. Diving into one's self, trying to find its locus, to
situate it in relation to everything/anything else becomes impossible. The dimensionless point
being sought constantly expands until it encompasses absolutely everything. A feeling of
omniscience, of ABSOLUTE AWARENESS, is there. But no "self."
* * * *
These are some of my anecdotes. From them, it might be concluded that I have no
experiences of self-consciousness and therefore may not be able to participate in any
effort to establish a "common understanding" of same.
davew
On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, at 8:28 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
David, and all,
I appreciate the work you have gone to to lay out our program in your two
messages. I feel like we have developed some understandings that I can lean on
in the future. I’m not so clear concerning what our common understanding of
self-consciousness is. Might need some more anecdotes to flesh that out. Not
obvious to me that love, entails, self-consciousness, in our sense,
As for dragons, the one thing an experience monist cannot do is disqualify your
experience of dragons. We can use your experiences with dragons to flesh out
the space of consciousness-experiences, just as confidently as we can use your
experience of your dog or of me.
Sent from my Dumb Phone
On Jul 20, 2024, at 1:13 PM, Edward Angel <an...@cs.unm.edu> wrote:
The original plan for the IAIA dome was to record stories.
Ed
_______________________
Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)an...@cs.unm.edu <mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu>
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel>
On Jul 20, 2024, at 10:56 AM, Stephen Guerin <stephen.gue...@simtable.com>
wrote:
I would pay to watch this film! Student production on the dome (digital Kiva)
at IAIA, Ben Shedd? Just a rough cut as students then present their own
experiences.
__
On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:57 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm
<mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
__
dragon stories:
/*my very first experience with peyote, I was 12-13 and living on the Hopi
reservation with my aunt and uncle. A group of boys were given the peyote as a
reward for gathering cottonwood buds for use in a Hopi ceremonial dance. Of the
five of us only one other wanted to try the drug, so I consumed roughly for
doses. A massive thunderstorm was in progress. At some point, a dragon
coalesced from the lightning, thunder, filtered sunlight and began speaki**ng
to me*./
[important interjection: my brain was "making sense' of an overwhelming number of
sensations, some detected by nerve endings, others generated by frantic neuron firings.
Assumed/assuming this is the same kind of thing that happens when the brain 'makes sense' of
the bombardment of sensations/neural firings that create the "illusion" of an
external world.]
/*we engaged in an apparently long lasting conversation about my recent experiences
in Hopi-land, the various Hopi stories I had been told that summer and how to interpret
them. At some point the dragon used the phrase, "alarums and excursions;" an
idiom I had first encountered some 8 years prior (pre-grade school) in a book called
*/_/*David and the Phoenix*/_*/./*
[interjection: till this point my interactions with the dragon were, as far
as I could tell, pretty much identical to the interactions I might have had
with another human being in the 'waking world'. This includes the implicit
assumption that I was interacting with a sentient, conscious, and
self-conscious being.]
Second story:
/*I was exploring the use of pain as a means of inducing an altered state
of consciousness. Four hours of enduring intense and varied pain administered
by a sadistic dominatrix in Salt Lake City, made me very self-aware with a
raspy voice. I began the 9 hour drive to Santa Fe to attend FRIAM. Along the
way my body went into shock and I dealt with that using meditative techniques.
I also was playing a CD of meditative Buddhist chants that I began to hum out
loud with my raspy voice. The result was the altered state I had been
seeking.*//**/
/**/
/*Somewhere in Arches National Park, I stopped, stripped naked and walked
down a dry wash where I 'encountered' a campfire and sat down. Brigham Young
was sitting at the periphery of the campfire and we began a long conversation
about Mormon theology and metaphysics, why blacks lost the right to the
priesthood (there were blacks in the priesthood in Nauvoo while Joseph Smith
was alive and that is one of the reasons the Mormons were persecuted by
Missourians), why religions like Christianity, Islam and Mormonism changed from
Feminism to misogyny, education, eternal progression, and a host of other
topics. The conversation ended when I realized I would be late for FRIAM
unless I stopped and resumed my journey.*/
[interjection: both the dragon and Brigham Young were 'illusions' constructed
"by the brain" just as the 'illusion' of ordinary reality. While interacting
with them, they were, to me, sentient, aware, and conscious entities. I attributed
sentience, intelligence, consciousness to them precisely because of the perceived
interactions- the verbal (in my case) and the 'auditorialized' (neuron firings
interpreted as sound) voices (of dragon and Brigham).]
After the fact self analysis of the incidents conclude that in both cases, the
"conversation" was between 'my self' and 'my memories': of the David in the
book and his conversations with the Phoenix in the book; all of the writings of Brigham
Young I had read years before.
These stories do not, technically bear on where or not dragons are
conscious, but they most definitely bear on whether or not domestic animals and
Nick are conscious—by virtue of the fact that the 'data' and the
'interpretation of the data' are, evidently, the same.
You might make an argument for 'faulty machinery' in my two stories, but
what is gained vis-a-vis our common understanding.
davew
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
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