When said with the right inflections it sounds like someone laughing. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 11:53 AM Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: > Years ago, a teacher offered me the following universal adage. > > He who, he who, > He who, he who. > > I have never been the same since. > > It's nothing if not asinine. > > N > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 1:21 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> There's a large dog park where I walk my dog most every day. One of the >> minor downsides of this park is that there are these geezers there that sit >> on the park benches and rant about various things. Their dogs are puzzled >> because all the other dogs get walks, but they are expected to sit there >> with their diminished owners. One of them is a RFKjr advocate. Another >> is a Trump guy. I try as I hard as I can to avoid talking to them, but >> others get drawn in. It's occurred to me that it wouldn't take much for a >> guy like that to take a tumble into the water, especially if it were dark >> on a Friday evening. That would really improve my walk with Abby. >> Luckily, she's deaf and doesn't have to hear it. >> >> No, I don't get it. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2024 10:07 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical >> descriptions? >> >> Dude. OK. The Angels becoming Demons isn't a duality, at least in my >> intent raising it, here. Our want to, desire for, *fascination* is both >> good and bad and good and bad aren't duals. Regarless, even if you want >> them to be duals, that's fine. The point I'm making is that this trait of >> ours, the desire to be fascinated/ecstatic is hallmark/canonical. Only >> those of us hopped up on mediTation or drugs that blunt emotions exhibit a >> reduced desire for things like profundity, awe, ecstasy, etc. It reminds me >> of the book "To Engineer is Human" ... but I'd generalize and say that it's >> fundamental to biology for organisms to seek ecstatic states ... the >> oneness of the universe, the dissolution of the self, etc. >> >> But this desire for beauty, to escape our selves, IS the problem as much >> as it is the solution. That's what I mean by Angels and Demons. Also >> "bullshit" is fairly well defined. It's an artificial/false construct >> constructed without regard to the Truth (where "Truth" might mean any >> number of shared values, accuracy, usefulness, etc.). This means that >> bullshit can accidentally be true, but never True. >> >> I don't know how much time y'all spend talking to, say, QAnon believers >> ... or back in the day those who yapped about Bilderberg, the Illuminati, >> speaking in tongues, or whatever. But, for me, the enthusiasm and ecstasy >> they exuded was infectious. Even as several of my homunculi knew it was >> bullshit-begetting, it was downright fun; not so harmless as the mob >> behavior of a rave, but still fun. I sought (still do to some extent) it >> relentlessly. It's a miracle of happenstance (or genetics?) I was never >> engulfed by it. I still do, at least when it's not merely lazy. In order >> for me to feel it, there has to be some *deep* bullshit ... you have to be >> able to get lost in the bullshit. If you hit clay or sand in the first hour >> or so, then it's just not that beautiful ... It has to be like String >> Theory deep. Now that's far out, man. >> >> >> On 8/13/24 09:19, steve smith wrote: >> > Ideaphoria as part of an annealing schedule perhaps? >> > >> > >> > A possibly self-referential example of what we are speaking of follows, >> as triggered by the topic and substance itself: >> > >> > On he angel-demon duality... >> > >> > Escher's famous hyperbolic tesselation on the same subject reminds me a >> bit of rayleigh-bernard convection cells? I haven't seen (but may have >> imagined?) the kind of convection/involution patterns we see in the classic >> demonstrations in the context of the churn of good vs evil, and the the >> foreground/background exchange? >> > >> > As Dennis Miller used to smirk at the beginning of his "don't let me >> get off on a rant here"... >> > >> > I'm honestly trying to explore this "riff" as an example of what I >> think you are speaking of? We were talking about the generality of >> "profundity as a breeding ground/enabler/masker" for "bullshit" (not >> precisely defined, but we probably all share an intuition of the 'know it >> when i see it' style?). >> > >> > Your mentioning of the Angel-Demon duality triggered in my (too near >> the edge of chaos?) fecund (fertile/feral?) mind and Escher's image >> overlayed with R-B convection cells roiling (my first experience was in >> metallic model airplane paints when disturbed and left open to evaporate? >> would roil until the metal particles settled to the bottom?). Without >> trying (but perhaps being compelled by an inner nature or drive, possibly >> what you refer to as the "orgasmic feeling" of "paradox or sophism") I >> found myself tangenting (as explored above) on the Angel-Demon implications >> of good/evil and the way one might be the fuel for the other and vice-versa. >> > >> > Having veered from the original question of Telic and perhaps >> Teleonomic (applied recursively to the RB-convection phenomenon) I would >> sit and stare (inadvertantly huffing the volatiles?) at the roiling cells >> in the model-airplane paint with a fascination as to whether there was >> intention or goal or purpose in that activity? I did not know much of any >> of the technical details of these things and while I had been instructed by >> elders in no uncertain terms not to impute either perpetual motion nor >> animism into such things, it was hard not to be deeply fascinated by said >> roiling. I don't know that I as the R-B cells in Escher's image the first >> time I saw it, but probably not long afterwards. >> > >> > This is the type of tangent I often delete, understanding it might well >> be taken to be deliberate bullshit generation (disguised as profundity)? >> My threshold for <delete before sending> varies. I haven't been on any >> pain meds beyond acetominophen since my (first) hip replacement a week ago, >> but the strange euphoria residue from the dissociative sedative (ketamine?) >> used during the extremely precise/surgical yet nevertheless invasive >> surgery, and the whole new suite of pains emanating from the hips and the >> introspective consequences are quite mind-bending. As we know, I don't >> need this kind of (mild?) altered state to wax "profound", but it does >> change it qualitatively (from the inside) a bit... >> > >> > On 8/13/24 9:05 AM, glen wrote: >> >> It's reasonable to ask what proportion of profundity is a cover for >> something versus a marker for something. I still tend to give people the >> benefit of the doubt. So when I see either something that seems profound >> (to me) or others saying or acting as if something's profound, it's a >> marker for my or their confusion, respectively. While it may be true that >> there are grifters out there who sow profundity, purposefully, in order to >> mask their rational plans, that sounds conspiritorial to me. A good edge >> case might be Elizabeth Holmes. To what extent did she know her claims were >> bullshit? Or to what extent did she convince herself that her bullshit was >> true/useful? >> >> >> >> Regardless of the proportions, the grifters don't breed bullshit so >> much. They prop it up artificially. Bullshit begetting more bullshit (i.e. >> breeding) has another home. I grant that it may not be profundity, >> directly. Maybe it's the confusion underlying the profundity. But the >> reason I think it's more the profundity is because the people I see who are >> most guilty of it are attracted by the "awe" or the "beauty" of some thing. >> They *want* to get stoned on some aesthetic, whatever it is ... carried >> away, ecstatic, blissful, etc. Like a paradox or sophism, there's a kind of >> orgasmic feeling to profound things ... "like. whoa, man." >> >> >> >> And *that's* the breeding ground, where Angels become Demons. >> >> >> >> On 8/8/24 11:03, steve smith wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Maybe. I'm not convinced. Profundity is THE breeding ground for >> bullshit. >> >>> I'm more inclined (in the context of my own profundity or perhaps >> more aptly prolificness or prolixity) to suggest that it is more of a mask >> (and therefore enabler?) of bullshit than a breeding ground. Could be a >> fine hair I suppose. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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