Thank you Nick, I think the file came through fine. Indeed, I think I have at least begun to read this one before. But it has probably been a few years, so to start fresh in this context will probably be helpful.
Will try…. Eric > On Mar 27, 2026, at 13:39, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: > > EricS, I stipulate that there is no scoundrel worse than the old professor > that insists that others read his old papers. It is one of two papers in > which I engage in "formal" metaphor analysis. I think it is, of all the > papers I have written, the most interesting, not because it is the best, but > because the can of worms it opens is largest and juiciest. You will find it > at > > Thompson, Nicholas S. “Shifting the Natural Selection Metaphor to the Group > Level.” Behavior and Philosophy, vol. 28, no. 1/2, 2000, pp. 83–101. JSTOR, > http://www.jstor.org/stable/27759407 > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.jstor.org%2fstable%2f27759407&c=E,1,teqBf52gOimtagrLbrgg-0LP_bJOisLyjZRx3g18NPqMtvGOcB9nqOoE9nMI2nsgknnygKUVG3X8geT2Jo3yFsWWlRl_uAbCB63KkgjYL7RCig,,&typo=1>. > Accessed 27 Mar. 2026. > > There is no pay wall, but there is a song and dance. I will try to attach a > copy below. I think I will stand or fall on the value of this paper as a > demonstration of the manner in which metaphors can guide useful arguments if > taken seriously. > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 5:34 AM Santafe <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> This is a great note, in the sense of being helpful from endless going >> around in circles, and written to get somewhere. I am always grateful when >> EricC visits from the Oort cloud and enables a conversation to go into some >> direction again. >> >> I want, though (of course) to object to something. And a paragraph below >> enables me to see the way I want to do it. EC already understands the >> source of the objection, and I will include the final paragraph where it is >> flagged, though I want to beware oversimplifying to the point of having >> strawmen (which I don’t think is being done here). But first; the objection: >> >> >>> On Mar 26, 2026, at 16:25, Eric Charles <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> There are at least three interesting things going on in the metaphor >>> discussion. The least interesting aspect of it is squabbling over what does >>> or does not count as a metaphor (vice simile, model, analogy, etc.). Not >>> that that isn't a perfectly good discussion, it just that it's *just* a >>> vocabulary discussion, not an ideas discussion. >>> >>> 1) What is an explicit metaphor, and to what extent do the constant >>> implicit metaphors that permeate our language resemble them? Nick has a >>> particular way of thinking about metaphors, based on the intent of the >>> person invoking the metaphor. Metaphors always assert that two things are >>> alike, not that they are identical, so that implies that all metaphors are >>> imperfect, and that that is intentional, and does not invalidate a >>> metaphor. Metaphors can thus be divided into intended implications and >>> not-intended implication, etc., etc. .... and Nick is fairly obsessed with >>> these, especially in scientific contexts where people seem to be using the >>> metaphors in different ways and that leads to a deep underlying confusion >>> in a seemingly functional field, e.g., Darwinian evolution by means of >>> "natural" selection.... >> >> This is the poster child for a thing that to me is the ultimate non-issue, >> and has been shown to be the non-issue it is for many decades now. >> >> Look up George Price: >> sciencedirect.com >> >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,6k-5nrJS62PuUU-46Mz58xZmP_RmaKGJcIINTgKljQOK5fQEsqtwDa7O26rALXMhH6jt0r7KA03C4Jj6vntsGXfqZoumEQ_rHrEVe0fEUBCvEVQ,&typo=1>sciencedirect.com >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,O2CifS598a7j6iRPK_Ft2oUU8Vvi2NsNnZHCjo-RnJZ6hwbQK-DNEN-LOpBbTWDqdalObZTkgMJVdqgb7Q1E8PwcMt6ohRh1b329sbAAQamgDlk,&typo=1> >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,_54nVg5M58_ZFdNUrSuVd-Q5aoBgGYVmXOS-VaTSk6EGVspDhawUfN0XozTIn3wR7fC2FwxXT0oYfWHOQc408B6vZqKYAkV7t4Tn1OC4pIrB46qjQ26QNTKmqA,,&typo=1>https://gwern.net/doc/genetics/selection/natural/1995-price.pdf >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fgwern.net%2fdoc%2fgenetics%2fselection%2fnatural%2f1995-price.pdf&c=E,1,3ApgZzoAIa0s6juCjZMdlHwuYJQdNNek0Hw20QGQVXvAfPuwEgv1MAHg_jVvSwD1956_WhUAJlyyem8jCFjGffpDZy-nDRY06aidhEyD66NCBw,,&typo=1> >> >> Price lays out, to a perfectly acceptable degree, an operational >> description. Of sets of things, of partitioning, of some’s being retained >> and others’ being eliminated, from the ongoing history of sets that are the >> targets of description. It’s a phenomenon that takes place in nature, in >> all sorts of forms. We need some lexeme to refer to it. What is a good >> one? Selection seems about as apt as anything in English. Quite beside >> the fact that Darwin wrote about animal breeding, this will still be perhaps >> the most apt word I have available. Not merely “sorting”, because I need >> also the consequence of the sort that a retention/elimination step ensues. >> Human intentionality is not imputed to the phenomenon itself at all, though >> there can be a subset of cases where it enters as part of the chain of >> causation. >> >> When anybody resurrects this zombie of claiming that some terrible metaphor >> of human breeding-selection is indelible in the cognition of people thinking >> about evolution that leads them into confusion, my experience of the >> conversation is much like the experiences I have had with the Implicit Bias >> crowd. It doesn’t take much time around many of them, before I am pretty >> firmly convinced that what they want is to condemn basically everybody (but, >> one by one, whomever they are talking to). (The nicest image that comes to >> mind is Aunt Ada’s “I saw something nasty in the woodshed” from Cold Comfort >> Farm, with about as much content.) The motivation is the whole, and any >> conversation will take whatever sophistic form gives the performance of >> fulfilling the motivation. To be clear about what really is going on, and >> to think well about it and improve the way we handle such problems in >> living, is incidental to why they do what they do. A kind of trojan horse >> of a kind we so often see: the existence of a legitimate justice aim becomes >> a vehicle for people who want to play domination games and to bully. They >> don’t erase the legitimate justice aim, but by having little serious >> interest in it (or a secondary and self-serving one, at best), they move it >> out of scope for any interaction you can have with them. At which point I >> don’t feel like feeding the trolls. Talk to me about really understanding >> and really helping, and stop the performing and pretending, or leave me >> alone. >> >> I do think one has to have some interest in knowing what people are doing, >> in context of the commitment to get thoughts clear and to solve some >> problems for which the solution has criteria, to keep such intuitions from >> turning into strawmen. >> >> >> The paragraph I promised to acknowledge, which I think also sees all this, >> was this one: >> >>> I suspect that much of the frustration of Nick v others on this list is the >>> instance of those others that any implications of the flavor text can be >>> ignored once the mechanism has been mathematized, vs Nick's instance that >>> if the flavor text is still being used it is almost certainly doing some >>> metaphor-like work in the background of whoever is using, or hearing, the >>> term (because otherwise, why not ditch it entirely). >> >> Eric(S) >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,wVK3WGT_3f0YgUd1KDhZgGeAZelAhArcFteORKR3fYYbIARBwRXGWop4DNArNGmvASE1bO07N1AZZ_W7np6_OmOVGWRMFFGmP9LRnKfgHQvRvbM5&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,nGgC54WHRg9MKiwoF6e8quwIBHQNfBJaBSh8ffXiJJO2HVlthEiyig9wyt1G5S94J67yeQ8MXE5LzrUgxkBxZ59K_FmO5ZZj9rGNv1BKcLwtWGheQW91Mnk,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,xscyvdPBcbeRiwCK8RdZIj8LkUlFGqbngVTAfpbpOdouVq5GnxrRhS1gf-S6Cmm30WQg03ccD-oce8h5l3XcsKmBFCML-fXYeVo_d551tUXCTAOpoyl_xYNlqA,,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,P5RDBq0snnKBnpRadM03lNyxxcZaooGEWru6l58HRXSr-1_rWVXSTtRCOJV-25dIzS4nqWsoHjPLipzKLLfPkrMIgR_e5cMgYnIAY7XUaw,,&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,LSijtTQb_Q9n334NaFY84o_yT2LX3Z_VNc-p3b51g9j2Y_D7QDDNTAn58QVXuUfImY4NQyRvno6FXpXE09Tq3WxMIYEf9hv9vC3koTF1-giZCb39-5WwUGCl&typo=1> > https://substack.com/@monist > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fsubstack.com%2f%40monist&c=E,1,Q1RFXjCNB4PQsl274-ZJxzmd-KscUAf-Gs_ea3QBeQxlhd15A4ipOc1_YNdBZMkn2u3jEea9Xk3HTyalWb1JOd14YdxFSWGLx1PzXq4w&typo=1><Shifting > the natural selection metaphor to the group level.pdf>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. > --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . > / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,rEqsDXcFJOnv862JvtGMgJ8sz9VUQo01WwGy4tw_mNjaaoArtxcaAbVC8Dpav4bTdkbFLpmfkkx_dcFwI5ZN0M3wiN_Jnt8kR81Fhg8_mMHXYF_zG-vG3e-r&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kpbyg3SvF1YRhvw5o9aILAOcqB3CeH6CLBXwK2_CQcWRYRzUgWENY1wKcyVa_Th_jAlLRhDib7MthaOU5rOsK4q6DjSYPzAfDF-NwsavAmlN6tUJjCs,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,eYwocfOMPFVY54WCm_XDYWL7T3k8Ju3c7qmeTbdKh1kA-4y2KcB6gsNP--zvbDb2eeLD_RsXR-RhImJMf9W1Zg7qjtZjg-bg5jNGPqKNslZ51rhsKw,,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,QZUm8vL4qLoY0EF843Dc2wy3cmr_ICwsI28BRxOztvmpp358IMZDfSFPyCacIU6UcvM1B6crQcmnnj8TXbX-dX5CRcNEGnNI62kGLI_hQZTHbeM,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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