Avraham Schneider, You make it worse: You use the bible! This is war! This is not a believe.
I believe in the bible, but we cannot and maynot use a religion when we are talking about facts! Don't use the bible to defend yourself. This is not a game... 2009/1/6 Avraham Schneider <avri.schnei...@gmail.com> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM, j-f sentier <j.sent...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Relativisation in this case is neccessary, because the UK took this land > > from arabians, > > and gived it to jews mostly because it was > > supposedly them promised land. > > Before that maybe not much arabians was living there, but still it was > them > > land. > > The not legit attribution in 1948 of the land to israel was the conflict > > starter and still today, now excuses have changed, palestinian are > throwing > > rocks and old school rockets around the border in israel. > > What have changed so far ? as i sayed in my first post on this topic, > israel > > is very young 61 years old, and have been in war with all of them > neighbors, > > also while fighting with them, israel once again has taken more land > during > > theses wars. > > History time-line (facts) > 17th-6th C. BCE > > c.17th century (BCE) - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the > Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land > of Israel. Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt. > c.13th century (BCE) - Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from > Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert. > Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai. > 13th-12th centuries (BCE) - Israelites settle in the Land of Israel > c.1020 (BCE) - Jewish monarchy established; Saul, first king. > c.1000 (BCE) - Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom. > c.960 (BCE) - First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the > Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon. > c. 930 (BCE) - Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel > 722-720 (BCE) - Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost > Tribes). > 586 (BCE) - Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple > destroyed; most Jews exiled. > 538 - 142 (BCE) - Persian and Hellenistic periods > 538 - 515 (BCE) - Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt. > 332 (BCE) - Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule. > 166-160 (BCE) - Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on > practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple > 142-129 (BCE) - Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans. > 129-63 (BCE) - Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy. > 63 (BCE) - Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey. > 63-4 BCE - Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel; Temple > in Jerusalem refurbished > c. 20-33 (CE) - Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth > 66 (CE) - Jewish revolt against the Romans > 70 (CE) - Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple. > 73 (CE) - Last stand of Jews at Masada. > 132-135 (CE) - Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome. > 614 (CE) - Persian invasion > 636-1099 (CE) - Arab rule > 691 (CE) - On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of > the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik. > 1099-1291 (CE) - Crusader domination (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem) > 1291-1516 (CE) - Mamluk rule > 1517-1917 (CE) - Ottoman rule > 1882-1903 (CE) - First Aliya (large-scale immigration), mainly from Russia. > 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, > Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded. > 1904-14 (CE) - Second Aliya, mainly from Russia and Poland. > 1909 (CE) - First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city, > Tel Aviv, founded. > 1917 (CE) - 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British > conquest;British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for > establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine" > 1918-48 (CE) - British rule > > > As you can see, it was not taken from Arabs but was given by the > British, who took it from the Ottomans. > > > > > I can understand why palestinian mothers are telling to theirs sons to > wear > > a bomb, and blow themself to kill some israelians, i totally do not > approve > > this, but as a mather of fact, i understand the despair for this people > > (open-mind is a crime ?). > teaching your kid to strap a bomb against their chest and commit > suicide while murdering innocent people is much more like child abuse > than being open-minded if you ask me. I think others here would > concur. > > > > > Also as i sayed in my first post, another problem of Israelites is that > > they think they are elected by god... and then are superior to any other > > race/religion, i'm not inventing nothing here.. it's written in the > Thora. > > > > Just this fact is a fundamental communication problem, for any discution > > because persons such as Avraham will always overlook the others point of > > view. > I think a bigger communication problem is being blind (on purpose) to > facts. > > > > > I'm not pro-palestinian > Could have fooled me. > > > or pro-israel, the only thing i know is > > relativisation in such conflict should be always the first thing to do > > before dumping any crap from your brain. > Why don't you start then? > > > > > A correction for Avraham: > > Jews != Israel > A Jew is a decendent of Avraham, Isac and Jacob on the father side, > having a Jewish mother. > Conversion to Judaism is also possible, bud discouraged for reasons I > will not get into here. > > Jacob's name was changed by G-d to Israel - you can find it in the > Torah - not that I expect or want you to read it. > > > Sionists != Jews > 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, > Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded. > Zionism was an international political movement that supported the > reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of > Israel. > > > > > > Also you sayed that jews that dont support the state and actions of > israel, > > are not real jews, or have lost the believe, this again is propaganda , > as > To clarify - I did not say they are not real Jews. > > As for propaganda - see my previous points on the difference between > facts and propaganda. > > > the US government was doing in USA a few years ago, "if you're not for > the > > invasion/war in irak/afghanistan, you're not a real american". > It is obvious that you are also against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. > The reason the US is fighting there is close to the reason why > Israelis are fighting in Gaza - to ensure peace to their citizens. > Should I remind you of 9-11? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2009/1/6 Ed Carp <e...@pobox.com> > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:14 AM, j-f sentier <j.sent...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> > "what would you call your lies" > >> > Which lies ? > >> > You're tunnel-focused on your point, with no relativisation at all, > >> > which > >> > >> Relativism is for opinions, not for fact. > >> > >> > There's two side on a medial, dont forget that, that's why i say > you're > >> > doing propaganda, while criticizing the other propaganda. > >> > >> No, there's not - the only side is the truth, the facts, which I guess > >> you choose to label as lies and propaganda. What was presented is > >> FACT, not opinion. How can FACT be relative? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ >
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