Well, statistics show that most crime is done on some form of drug, and drug addiction is probably about 90% of most major crime evens, so, i think this gives people of the IT nature, a much higher chance, staitstically speaking, it would be of more benfit to simply rehab them, rather than make them a possible statistic of the 'rotation' count most harder crims have. ok,. im out! xd
On 3 October 2011 22:38, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclos...@gmail.com>wrote: > Well, thanks for the logical response :) > > Many people want these "evil hackers" locked up and such, but doing so will > only achieve the folowing (in my opinion): > A: Cost money. > B: Turn them into a more hardened criminal. > C: Cost the community a useful person who could be beneficial to them. > > Consider that Davis is 18, Cleary only 19, and other people arrested are > about the same age. What the law enforcement and judicial bodies dealing > with them must realize is that they are dealing with intelligent young > people, who simply chose the wrong path. What they need is not a prison > stay, but some rehabilitative treatment, perhaps councilling to help them > find the right path, and a better sense of morality. > > Hell, in some cases the mere arrest itself scared people straight. Having a > bloody SWAT team blow the bloody doors off is enough to reangline* most > young mens moral compass! > > Of course, jailing them can be used to "send a message" that "this is not > acceptable" and such, but that has *less* merit than *using* them for good. > All one does by sending a message is make those still out there feel more > persecuted, and persecuted people lash out, doing more damage, and the cycle > continues. > > *This computers spellcheck is not working, it wants to use Cyrillic! > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:28 PM, xD 0x41 <sec...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Ok.. my final posts on this matter i think... and opinons, >> >> >> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather >> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming >> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and >> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them). >> >> It does outweigh, for, each time a perso is jailed it costs you, me, and >> anyone wh works, money. >> We can re3duce the harm, by education and counselling. Especially forced >> hours per-week basis, of counselling with a qualified psych, possibly before >> release even better. >> I think the IQ level is higher, therfore, there is a 'smarter' chance of >> it happening, asmuch as theyre hacking, theyre also gaining tremendus >> knoledge, many do go into IT sec, we just cannot see those cases really..and >> when we do, theyre usually yrs after the thing has happened, but, i could >> think of a few EU based guys who are hapily workin for huge co's, making >> massive cash, evven maker of Morphine, HolyFather, admittedly went into Av, >> and made rootkits for years. >> So, for sure, why put them in jail, it is just going to 'harden' , like >> anyone will when ones back is up against the wall, as it will be in jail >> ofc. >> I think rehab, rather than retalliate. >> >> Bedtme here for me :) >> I enjoy your posts, and i think the whole topic has much merit in these >> lists, other than just about a cpl of websites, pople forget that it is >> still about, the freedom to even, do a simple pentest , really thats the >> crux of it. >> >> So, i think,some method used by psychology, could very easily work, >> especially because, these guys are usually VERY smart, and, the can still be >> 'saved' unlike some hardened armed-robber/burglar... >> The chance of rehab, is specially high because of the intellectual >> platform it takes just to be at a simple or mediate level of the scale, in >> terms of 'hacking' in hgeneral. >> cheers, >> xd >> >> >> >> >> On 3 October 2011 22:17, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclos...@gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the input, I will be putting this as a debate soon for thew >>> Law Society in the Uni I attend, to see what the legal guys think. >>> >>> The issue in the example is not fraud, but damage done to the servers >>> (lets assume root/deface) and perhaps leaking of stolen data - the case I am >>> using as an example would be, for example, the "LulzSec" breaches. How hard >>> would they get f*cked on an international scale if arrested? How many >>> countries will try extradite them? >>> >>> In my opinion, they should be simply charged, tried and convicted in >>> their country of residence and be done with it - there is no benefit to >>> society as a whole to be gained from hanging them three or four times a >>> piece, as I reckon given a good shock and such, they come out with a >>> newfound respect for authority and may even be of some benefit to the >>> security community and the community as a whole. Locking them up merely >>> turns them further toward criminal lives - and remember, all hackers *have* >>> potential to do good as well as evil, it is just a matter of their choice. >>> Given a *shove* toward the right decision is more beneficial in the end. >>> >>> "Discuss"... >>> >>> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather >>> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming >>> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and >>> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them). >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:34 AM, xD 0x41 <sec...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Could just lok at the recent david cecil case here in .au. >>>> It does say alot, because he did breach some bigger networks.. and he >>>> was committing 'smaller' scale fraud but, still fraud, however, his main >>>> problem was what he did to a governemnt site, wich was deface it for >>>> personal gain, not profit. >>>> It is the latest case wich would be valid of this. >>>> still.. intresting infos... good stuff. >>>> xd >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3 October 2011 19:16, Darren Martyn < >>>> d.martyn.fulldisclos...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Going back to my own example, say all three are first world countries, >>>>> and A and C are in the EU whilst B is the US. All nations involved have >>>>> good >>>>> diplomatic relations and preexisting extradition treaties, and to add >>>>> interest to it, lets say the LEO in B and C helped the investigation. The >>>>> criomes would be non-financial, but say, large scale hacks and such. I >>>>> will >>>>> use Jake Davis's case as a "canary case" for this though... >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:31 AM, xD 0x41 <sec...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ah, the legend of the mailing-list himself, has spoken. >>>>>> not knowing you, for all i have seen, your a pathetic sack of rubbish, >>>>>> and really, what we are discussing, if you had ANY clue, wich obv dont, >>>>>> is >>>>>> simply how far our own freedom is going. >>>>>> You are an idiot. >>>>>> Have a nice day. >>>>>> xd >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2 October 2011 08:45, andrew.wallace < >>>>>> andrew.wall...@rocketmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 AM, <valdis.kletni...@vt.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> > On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:16:11 +1000, xD 0x41 said: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> As you also said, murder is a no brainer in any place...well, >>>>>>> maybe not iraq >>>>>>> >> or afghanistan just yet :P lol.. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Iraq, for all its problems, is still a place with a somewhat >>>>>>> functional >>>>>>> > judicial system. The court system may be broken, but you in general >>>>>>> *will* at >>>>>>> > least appear in a courtroom with a judge and be pronounced guilty >>>>>>> before you're >>>>>>> > punished. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I was actually thinking more along the lines of totally failed >>>>>>> states such as >>>>>>> > Somalia, Sudan, or the contested parts of Afghanistan, where you >>>>>>> can't be tried >>>>>>> > for murder because there isn't a court to try you *in*. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you not grown old of talking to children on mailing lists? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andrew Wallace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Independent consultant >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.n3td3v.org.uk >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. >>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html >>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
_______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/