----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Evans Harrell To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Christoph Reuss Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Angels of Death 1b
Chris, I don't mean to put you off on this but I am a private Teacher who must work for every single penny and that means that I must do other things than talk about this. I don't mean to make you wrong, in fact I was trying to stir some sort of empathy within you in regards to this. It seems to me if you can't walk in the other person's shoes for a while, you have no basis for any kind of judgment. That was the purpose of my making the comparison. As for information, the internet alone has plenty of info on the history of the Swiss as well as the situation during the second World War. It seems to swing from left to right with a strong right wing at present which is one of the classical problems of direct Democracy. That is the reason given for representative Democracy. I can see the good and bad of both. Both however tend to locate strength either in the majority, no matter how smart or dumb, or in those of political power which usually translates to money. Our government is not the same as both and relates to our culture and is based largely in experience (Elders) and is built on Universal consent. I can imagine Europeans having such a thing. They would never get anything done because of the importance of the personal pronoun. Yours and Israel's universal military is the same as ours was when we had such. It seemed to me as I had read the history of the Swiss from beginning to present (and I do see it as an admirable history by and large) that there were enough mistakes made by the majority for some kind of empathy with what was going on in Israel today. But I may have been wrong. So for the last time around on this, not for any reason other than my need to make a living as well as take care of my own family and community responsibilities here during this our most sacred time of the year, I will walk over this path with you. I will also try to keep the defensiveness to a minimum and stem my passionate way of writing so as not to enforce a reactive response from you. This simply is the way that I see it and I am only one person with my unique experiences and am 60 years of age with my history of coming through America's Reservation System, Apartheid, Military, Educational System and a private free lance Entrepreneur in a system that has a 2% rate of success at making a living. That is not bragging but a statement of my time and space filter in the way that I perceive these things. I've been extremely lucky and I would admit that to anyone. Many have not succeeded and more than a few have not survived given where I have been. So here goes one more time. > Ray Evans Harrell wrote: > > Chris, > > > - CH extradites war criminals to The Hague; IL is governed by one. > > > > > > So the statement you quoted above is rather inappropriate... > > > wish it were true! > > > > No the Israelis are governed by a professional soldier just like George S. > > Patton. > > No, a _professional_ soldier knows the rules of war (including Geneva > Conventions) and doesn't violate them all the time. I wish it were true but to quote Debussy, "Military music is to music what miltitary law is to Justice." Military music is by and large one form, as Debusse said, "the Cakewalk" renamed the march and for one purpose, to get everyone to bond muscularly so they will not think while they become killers. Brad wrote a nice article on his site about how the problem in Palestine is economc and that raising the standard of living in the countries around Israel would subvert the terrorism. To some degree I do agree with that but I believe that is only a superfical answer. Getting those children out of refugee camps is crucial for capitalism since capitalism is based upon private ownership. Israel is not culturally connected to that being Socialist and based in the Jewish culture. That is IMHO a blind spot for the Israelis. It is also an issue for the Moslem culture of the Mosque which is a mix of several different types of economics that doesn't blend well with modern Capitalism either. That book "Culture Matters" makes this point very well. However I believe that Capitalism has to adjust and find ways of dealing with various levels of private property or capitalism will go to war with these other groups and either commit genocide or be overwhelmed. That again is my opinion. So I think you are not correct in your judgment about the soldiers in modern warfare. We are so much more complicated than the Geneva Convention in its naive simplicity that we can't even deal with the definition of Genocide. I would also point out that I know that your country has not signed a good many agreements, including the UN for the same reason that America has resisted the International Court. But I don't want to argue about that because people have the right to assert their own self interests and to negotiate with the world over it. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/swiss_militia.htm http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/news/worldnation/11anazi.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n4p32_Schaub.html I realize the Schaub site is controversial but I assume his statements about why the Swiss have not joined the UN are more accurate than his stories about the holocaust. > > If you don't like that leadership then you have to come up with some > > alternative. Your statements offered none. Bragging is no substitute > > for discussion but maybe it translates differently into Swiss. > > You asked me a question (on parallels CH--IL) and I answered it. > I was merely listing some facts. If facts sound like bragging to you > then I'm sorry for you. Maybe you prefer lies in NYC, but then you > don't have to ask me questions. Facts, in our culture, are mutual agreements that change through experience and negotiation. Truths relate to lies and are a different matter completely. I assume this is an issue of translation. I asked for alternative solutions to the problem in the Middle East. You offered nothing that I read. Brad did and some of it I agree with and others not. But Israel is not going away and neither is the low standard of living in the more traditional Arab countries without some radical changes in spirituality and in attitude by the money powers of the West and as you state Swiss is the seventh money power in Europe in spite of its tiny population and Japan like situation with natural resources. Actually Japan is much more dependant upon trade than the Swiss on this account. > > Surely you did not mean to compare your history with a nation that was > > kicked, shoved, spat on and treated as "murderers of God" by the > > Christian Swiss as much as the rest of the world for 2,000 years did you? > > Your question (and thus my answer) was about Israel, not about the Jewish > people/"nation". That's a crucial difference, especially considering how > badly Zionists have treated Jews in the past (such as asking the Swiss > gov't to send Jewish refugees back at the border). Are we back to the Protocols of Zion? Come on Chris, Zionism is a buzz word and although I have worked with one of the largest Jewish populations in the world I have rarely met such a creature. At one point I knew people who were against the foundation of the State of Israel for spiritual reasons. They can tell you if they wish, I'm not of their faith and that is taboo in mine. But when Israel became a state, they all joined. Maybe all of the Jews in Switzerland are against Israel but I can tell you that the one third of the Jewish Population of the world situated here and the one third in Israel consider that land to be their nation and they have dual citizenship here. Just like some Swiss, English and others do. I know two anti-Israeli Jews, I also know a couple of anti-fundamentalist Moslems but by and large the Moslems would prefir that this infidel convert and pray like them. Same for the Christians. I heard the same story about the IRA believing that the murder of civilians was the only way fix Northern Ireland. And I suspect there were some who believed that but they were an abberation. Abberation's don't make policy they just screw it up. > And no, giving Jews a safe haven while they were being persecuted in the > surrounding countries is NOT "kicking etc. as much as the rest of the world"! The Swiss have some very wonderful events in history to take credit for. > > Also, could you really mean to equate the first fifty years of a new > > national government with the maturity of a government that has made peace > > with its neighbors? What was the first 70 years of Switzerland like? > > The first 70 years of CH (1291-1360) certainly didn't consist of driving > millions of natives off their lands and killing many of them, nor of > state terrorism, bulldozer wars, curfews with shooting on sight, etc. > Nor did any other 70 years of CH history. Who was Nichlas von Flue talking to when he chided them for involving themselves in foreign military affairs? Chris, every country goes through an adolescence when it makes its space. There are no countries that don't have such horrors in their backgrounds. It all depends upon when you say the country began. Need I point out the fact that the racism against Gypsies started in Lucerne and continued up into the last quarter of this century? I am not speaking of equivalency here but if you make percentage statements about other countries acceptence of the Jews you also have to make percentage statements about the treatment of the Romany. The Jews were a part of this as well. I'm not trying to agitate but to point out that we all have our hot spots on this. By and large Switzerland has a mixed reputation on this. On the one hand you have been very open in admitting mistakes while on the other hand there have been recent racist skinhead attacks on these groups according to the BBC. We all have to be on our guard to resist such things. Especially those of us who are in Democracies who do not want to allow such things to happen. We should not permit such things to happen "on our watch." > > What was the first 70 years of Switzerland like? > > I know what it was here because we were a part of the scapegoat for the > > ills of the country. > > Yeah right, CH invaded America 1291-1360. Talk about scapegoats. I hope you don't believe that was what I was saying. Actually there was a Swiss presence here and they weren't very nice along with the Danes, the Dutch and the Portuguese, the dates were in the 1700s. I don't have time to look them up but the author is Francis Jennings Newberry Scholar on American Indians. > > Also my point is that even with peace they still stock their food in the > > basement and demand universal military membership. "Well there is > > peace but guard the door!" > > What's wrong with defense in its literal meaning ? (and how would the > world look if all countries would behave like this?) That is the argument of the gun lobby here in the US. What it would look like is hell. You have a very tiny population, about the population of Manhattan Island and you all live connected lives. You have an agreement about the minority accepting the will of the majority and not resisting with those guns. We have a large country but a very diverse population of people who glory in guns. We also have drug dealers who did to our society what the English did to the Chinese. Just because you haven't fought wars with guns does not mean that your money and its manipulation hasn't participated in the history of the rest of the world. As you well know there have been confessions about such things in WWII by your own government who made a fetish of being poor, small, and armed to the teeth when in actuality they were accepting gold melted down from the teeth of Jews and Gypsies. I'm not saying we didn't do our own share at various times but it doesn't exempt you either. You have a fine government made up of civil people but sometimes people screw up and it doesn't help to rely upon hyperbole at such times. Indeed your own spirituality begins with confession. Once you confess you can see how human the other side is by what they require for forgiveness. Europe by and large owes the Jews, Homosexuals and Gypsies a considerable amount of confession on this one. And that's just history unless you agree with Schaub. > I think the problem is with countries who _mean_ attrition but _call_ the > ministry/department "of defense". > > > > Consider the following: > > > > Chris, Brad, there are some other important differences. > > 1.. When were the Swiss forced to leave their native country and wander > > as a culture for 2,000 years? > > [etc.] > > Your point seems to be that Israel's behavior is justified by the > history of the Jewish people. That's wrong, and fortunately, intelligent > and progressive Jews agree that it's wrong. See e.g.: > http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/images/resources/jew2jew.pdf > http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW%20.pdf I will and I will say that war under any circumstance is at least a failure of culture, religion, humanity and morality! I agree that being surrounded by lions is a good reason to make every man women and child a soldier. But are you saying that the Jews of New York are not Progressive? How many Progressives and where are you talking about? Twenty? Or a site on the Internet? We are all appalled by the lack of imagination of governments. All governments! but it is an old complaint. Would you do away with governments? You offered no answer for the Nation of Israel meaning the Jewish Nation. What exactly are you proposing for the Middle East? That was and is the question. Otherwise it is just wisecracking and cheap shots about people who are angry, threatened and have an army. One of the most ridiculous statements I have heard recently is to claim Israel as a World Power. What a piece of horse shit. Jewish Bankers? How do they compare per capita to Moslem Bankers in Indonesia or the Hindu middle class in India or the Swiss Bankers? I realize that the Jewish Nation is twice your size if taken world wide and that can't be comfortable but when I point out that they are a wounded tiger that is only in relation to Switzerland not us. To us they are less than Long Island. The Jewish Kabal is a myth based upon those who feel themselves at risk. Math cures everything. Do the numbers. Hype is just hype. > > 7.. When were lies told about Swiss Bankers profiting from the death of > > captive populations? > > Quite often recently -- just listen to Ed Fagan. (who was now dropped > by Jubilee2000 because he told too many lies) That was my point. You too feel abused in this. Your government also, from its own website, issued an apology to the Jews. Was it also to the Gypsies? You have your Enron as well but you are a small group that can exercise power over people due to the tiny population. So can the state of Oklahoma or Missouri. > I'll clip the rest of your misinformed rants. I could care less about > people parroting such nonsense, but the problems start when people think > they can derive special rights from such nonsense, and trample on the > rights and lives of others based on that nonsense. Do you not believe that 2,000 years of being paraded around as the "Murderers of Christ" and the "Users of the blood of non Jewish Children", wouldn't stir up a little "pissed off" feelings? especially if they got the bomb? Perhaps they should have put Israel in Northern Italy or on the border between Germany and Switzerland? You may call it nonsense but that seems less than prudent. What did you expect to come out of the group that just sixty years ago had their Grandparent's teeth melted down and sent to Swiss banks? What would the Irish do? Remember William of Orange? What about the Basques? What about the old group in Switzerland that still hides out in the back valleys and practices the old ways? Sixty years is nothing for a 2,000 year old debt. It is 1,000 with the Romany. You obviously haven't experienced such rage. I carry it in my bones as do Blacks in America. Every day I have to tame that Jaguar or I will end up in Jail like those who cannot. And the cultures who built their prosperity over 2,000 years on the backs of our various peoples believes that one generation will wipe it away or maybe Jesus. It would take the Son of God to do such a thing. The point is whether yours works or not. If humanity is to > survive, it will have to drop this millennia-old religious crap and > start addressing _today's_ problems (environmental and social). > Progress, please! History + Environment + Genetics = Today's problems. Why do you think they don't care about that Red Cross on that ambulance? History + the fact that Bombs have been found in ambulances + the need to survive rather than end up in camps again = Today's problems > Especially on a list called FutureWork. > > Chris > (for the record, my first name was not > chosen based on religion, but inspired > by the name of composer Christoph W. Gluck) The composer who kept Mozart from getting that job in Vienna? Sorry, but I could only keep the Jaguar under just soo much supervision. You may now answer this anyway you wish but I must move on. Best to you and yours and I do admire the Swiss even though you may not feel that. Ray Evans Harrell
