Brad,
Here is an interesting link on Bateson and his wife:
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/wwii_folder/wwiioss_folder/wwiiossr&a.html
Bill
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:49:23 -0400 "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Selma Singer wrote:
> > Keith,
> >
> > Just for the record, I would like to state that there is no
> absolutely clear
> > evidence from biology, anthropology, or sociology that states
> unequivocally
> > that it is part of human nature to stive for status to the
> detriment of
> > others.
> [snip]
>
> I don't think we know how much "competitive instinct" "we" have,
> and if "we" do have any, probably some persons have more of it
> than others. But prudence seems to me to suggest that we
> act "conservatively", and assume there is a fair amount of
> competitive spirit "in us". I don't have the citation at hand,
> but Gregory Bateson described some primitive cultures in which
> competition was highly prized, and some in which competition
> was much disparaged. The former societies were, if I remember
> right, highly unstable; the latter were more "conformist" than
> we would like, but they were in no danger of self-destructing.
> So the anthroplogical evidence seems to suggest that
> low competition societies can be viable.
>
> As for primates, supposedly the bonobos are our closest
> relatives, and they are peaceful but have a lot of sex.
> Keith: Are you so sure we are not like the bonobos?
>
> I don't think we can eliminate competition from our social
> life. But I think we, certainly in America, "nurture"
> it way too much, to the point that persons have no
> choice other than to compete (for jobs, etc.), whether
> they want to or not.
>
> I am only arguing against interpersonal
> competition. I suggested that we "mobilize" to *FIGHT*
> our natural enemies and the evils we have created
> in our social world, e.g., wasteful energy consumption
> and pollution. I don't cry for the moon of some kind of
> zombieland (like the movie "The Truman Show" faked up, e.g.),
> but for lowering the anxiety/insecurity level of life,
> and getting more persons more interested in "beating"
> AIDS than in beating the Jets (or the Mets or the Wizards
> or the whatevers).
>
> Keith speaks about the buzzards' 1% surplus of energy
> input vs energy output. But if buzzards survive on such
> a narow margin, don't they do it in an environment
> that reached equilibrium long ago? Isn't our
> environment nowhere near equilibrium?
>
> The 20th
> century has been called the century of total war.
> WWI, WWII, etc. Clearly "peaceful" competitive
> pursuits did not preserve the peace, unless one considers
> the enormous amount of energy (money, etc.) that
> went into The Cold War as having been "peace",
> whereas had all those resources gone into
> what are normally called peaceful pursuits,
> our world today might almost be a desirable
> kind of utopia.
>
> I'm not an expert, but the social "world" I find
> myself living in does not make good sense to me,
> and I do try to understand it.
>
> Lke the old cartoon of the two armies facine
> each other, and the officer on each side
> give the order: "Fire!" --> and the troops on
> each side do fire: they each shoot their own officer.
> (This is meant here as a metaphor!)
>
> \brad mccormick
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [snip]
> >>Brad,
> >>
> >>At 08:23 27/09/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >>>I think there is time to teach both science and technology to
> >>>address Keith's concerns, and also for some liberal arts
> >>>experience -- if we dump the "crap", among whcih I would
> >>>include all forms of interpersonal competition, competition
> >>>in sports, competition for grades, etc.
> >>
> >>But why do you keep crying for the moon? We may be primates+, but
> we are
> >>still primates and for several million years, intra-group
> competition for
> >>status and inter-group fighting for dominance has been built into
> our
> >>genes. We can't get rid of these traits. Once we have the wisdom
> to accept
> >>that we can never change these, then we can start to seriously
> consider
> >>what sorts of institutions we need so that these inevitable
> conflicts are
> >>confined to as small a scope as possible. By trying to ignore
> these
> >>predispositions or by trying to overlay them with impossible
> ideals --
> >>which never succeed, or at least not for long -- we are not
> tackling the
> >>problem, but just waiting for the next big catastrophe or the next
> big
> >
> > war.
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> --
> Let your light so shine before men,
> that they may see your good works.... (Matt 5:16)
>
> Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21)
>
> <![%THINK;[SGML+APL]]> Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit my website ==> http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/
>
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