This is a very interesting way to see it; it has set me to thinking about what, precisely, do I think is the disjuncture between pure 'self-interest' and the 'need' to be creative that I see as behind Hobbes' own need to write about these things.
It seems to me to have something to do with the way each of us is defining 'self-interest'. I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of life being 'brutish'; that brings an imagery of each and everyone being ONLY for her/himself in an oversimplified way of not allowing for the kind of creativity that would impel someone to write her/his thoughts so as to someone bring about a better world? I'm just musing here but would like to hear someone else's definition or description of what is meant by 'self-interest' in the sense that Hobbes used it or in any other sense. Modern-day entrepreneurs, the Ken Lays, etc. seem to me to epitomize what I understand as Hobbes' idea of 'self-interest' and it seems to me that this kind of mind-set and value system would have to obstruct creativity of the kind that impels a person to write about ideas that would benefit others. Again, I'm thinking as I type so I welcome responses. Selma ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Straker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "futurework" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 2:46 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Re: Hobbes > Selma Singer wrote: > > I guess my question has to do with Hobbes's basic sense of human nature. If, > > as I understand him, he believes that our nature is to act only in our > > self-interest, and if that self interest has to do only with our physical > > and material preservation, why would he care to inform us ... > > about what is in our best interests. That seems to me > > to be an act that goes beyond self-interest to an interest in general human > > welfare, or an act that comes from some creative need (?) in Hobbes. > > > > ... people who engage in creative work, like > > writing, are doing something that goes beyond their own self-interest. And I > > believe strongly that creative work ... > > defines us much more > > accurately than does our need to preserve our lives or even our comfort. > > Hobbes is so interesting to me because he so clearly sets > forth right at the beginning all the wonderful and > problematic features of our "modern age" as they continue to > effect our lives today, some 350 years later. > > Hobbes is basically asking: What if Galileo is right? How > shall we live? What is the human condition? ... if Galileo > is right. > > One thing is clear: the traditional answers to these > questions, those offered by such as Aristotle, Thomas > Aquinas, or (pick your favourite philosopher), *must* be not > wrong - and not merely wrong so much as *wrong-headed*! > Since they point in the wrong direction, to non-existent > things, it makes no sense to think of "revising" traditonal > thought. It must be discarded. > > Now I would say that a person trying to think things through > in these circumstances is engaged in extraordinarily > creative activity. > > Secondly, since it is clear that JUSTICE and CIVILIZATION do > not exist just "by nature alone" the way the plants and > planets do, Hobbes faces the challenge of figuring out how > justice and civilization, and decency, and all those things > that go with a rich and healthy civil life ... how these > things can be gained and secured - given, I say, that they > are NOT going to emerge securely all by themselves if nobody > pays attention and just lets nature take its course. > > So for Hobbes, we are *on our own* in this life, and a civil > society is OUR work, not something that happens "by nature" > or is bestowed upon us by benevolent higher beings. It will > not help in our task if we are frightened, oppressed, and > confused by wicked people and the false or empty, > superstitious, and ideological doctrines which they use to > prop up their power over us. (etc etc etc). > > Because he loves civil life and the exercise of human > powers, it is very much IN Hobbes's INTEREST to try to see > clearly and to assist the rest of us to see clearly what our > situation is and what remedies are available to us. It is in > each of our interests to be always vigilant and to join our > powers cooperatively to create and sustain human > communities. This, I think, is pretty clearly Hobbes's > message. > > (And, as Ed W pointed out, H's ideas are at the ideological > center of the attack on feudal despotism and the emergence > of a robust liberal-democratic polity.) > > > Stephen Straker > > Vancouver, B.C. > [Outgoing mail scanned by Norton AntiVirus] > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
