HI Dark, Regardless of whether you like it or not, or think it is valid or not, people in the real world are in essence, relativistic. To say that this in effect, devalues them or their opinions is simply a value judgement on your part.
Whether any of us likes it, we all have the right to say we do or do not like something and simply end a discussion there. this is not about choosing a view of relativism to make people feel warm and fuzzy, this is simply acknowledging everyone's opinions regardless of whether or not they have the same value system in place as we do. Imposing a value structure on a group simply because it suits one person or a small group of persons, is simply not conducive to an equal discussion. Sometimes someone's idea of good and bad is simply just that, a simple idea of good or bad. Do you like something or not? Just because one might not be able to articulate why they like or do not like something does not invalidate their opinion or the right they have to share it equally. A rather outspoken musician said two very interesting things which apply here. • There are two kinds of music. Good music and bad music. • Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. It might not be readily obvious how the second statement fits in here but give it a while and see what comes up… I think you might be surprised. Lastly, the values you are expressing in your note are of particular schools of thought. Not everyone subscribes to these schools. -Nor do they need to. For example, the current trend of Wisdom of Crowds data gathering is a good example of a very valid counter argument to yours. It validates rather than invalidates people's points of view. It counters the assumption that if everyone's opinions are equal regardless of criteria, that the people's opinions in question are invalid. It does this partially by posing better, more precise questions or discussion points. These sorts of questions at once yield more valuable and useful responses from people while still allowing them to share their thoughts freely. This is something to keep in mind here. Part of discussing what represents a 'good' audio game absolutely needs to involve widespread opinion, not tightly focused judgements that all must agree / adhere to. Since this is a mailing list it would not be a true Wisdom of Crowds environment in the sense of optimal statistical data gathering but would be an excellent wise environment if one would choose to watch and learn from it that way. Does this make sense?… If you are interested, here is a link about this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds Thanks for a great start to a discussion! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 14, 2014, at 9:12 PM, dark <d...@xgam.org> wrote: The problem charlse as I explained with just saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is that then you have no grounds for cryticism or comment at all sinse ultimately everyone can just say "well I like this" or "I don't like that" Suppose for example I were to claime that Jim's reaction test game is the best game in the universe, and david greenwood had utterly wasted his time with shades of doom. Well, if everything is relative, you cannot argue with me. No sighting of the good features of shades of doom, it's atmosphere, it's challenge, it's requirement for exploration will make it a better game than Jim's rection test sinse it's all relative, indeed if everything is relative then sighting of good features of shades of doom simply translates to "what I like" Still worse, when designing a game someone cannot attempt to "look at what is good" or "Decide on good features of a design" sinse again everything just comes down to relative opinion. This is not an idle threat either. I remember some years ago a developer had created a game which he was expecting money for, which lacked many features of a decent game. he! claimed the game was awsome and that he liked it, other people disagreed, and thus the game never improved at all and now I'm willing to bet has been utterly forgotten about. This is the problem with relativism in any field where things are designed. It is an attractive position, sinse it does take into account the fact as you said that different people like different things, and also it allows a validity of opinion to everyone. The problem however is total relativism is ultimately unhelpful, and by making everyone's opinion equally valid, you also make everyone's opinion equally invalid. Of course, a complete absolutism, saying "this is good irrispective of what you think" isn't going to be helpful either. This is why i personally lean towards a medium position, that though there are! characteristics which make a good game, or peace of music, or peace of literature, how these characteristics are applied, and indeed to what extent certain chracteristics matter is an individuualistic matter. For example, I do not like sports games. Sports have little interest to me, particularly sports like American football and baseball that I am less than familiar with the rules of. yet, I look at Jim kitchin's baseball game, at the neetd to develop reflexes in the swinging of the bat, to assign player actions strategically, the use of sounds for advertisements and the ability to customize the teams, and I can say these characteristics make it a well designed game, just one in a genre and of a style that does not interest me. these! are the sorts of discussions that are interesting, discussing with others what makes a good game and how well those characteristics are applied, a discussion we would not be able to have if indeed everything was entirely relative, sinse ultimately we'd all then just be saying "I like this" or "I don't like that" which pretty much ends most discussion dead. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
