Re: [Audyssey] braille/large print/other media for audiogames(wasinfo games game engines)

Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:38:40 -0700

I'm not against having it available in multiple formats. However, I am for having braille as the main media type. There is a distinction. 

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! ----- Original Message ----- From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org> 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] braille/large print/other media for audiogames(wasinfo games game engines) 



What about people who read large print or use a lense or magnifyer? what 
about people who are newly blind, have not learnt braille but have a 
reader?



really charlse, I don't see why your objecting to having information out 
there in multiple formats so strongly.


Beware the grue!

Dark.

There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is 
vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than 
even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Rivard" <wee1s...@fidnet.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 7:28 PM

Subject: Re: [Audyssey] braille/large print/other media for audio 
games(wasinfo games game engines)




I would not offer print pamphlets.  The selected audience for the 
information does not read print.


---

Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 7:15 AM

Subject: Re: [Audyssey] braille/large print/other media for audio games 
(wasinfo games game engines)




Hi jeremy.


A sort of general physical publication for various blind organizations 
might be a good idea in the future, sort of like a physical version of 
audeasy, but that wasn't the sort of scale I was thinking just as far as 
getting people on board went.



What I was imagining was somethingmore like a general introduction, 
perhaps twop thousand words at most which just explains what audio games 
are, what the bennifits of playing them might be, the differences 
betwene audiogames and text games etc.



It might have some examples mentioned but these wouldn't be adverts for 
any specific developers as much as just "shades of doom is a great 
example of an fps" type of thing.



i would also not suggest selling it, but having it as a freely available 
informational leaflet who's production is financed by a number of people 
in the community, though whether enough funds could be generated to 
produce sufficient copies would be another question. However if I were a 
person who didn't know about audiogames I am more likely to pick up a 
free braille or print leaflet from a table at the next function of blind 
organization x than pay for something about a subject I've never heard 
of before.



Of course, if it was  successful and people liked it, more specific 
things could  be done later, but I don't think we're at that point sinse 
for most people in places like The Rnib it's just a matter of knowing 
that accessible computer games exist! let alone advertising anything 
specific.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things 
benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeremy Brown" <tyr...@gmail.com>

To: <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 8:26 PM

Subject: Re: [Audyssey] braille/large print/other media for audio games 
(was info games game engines)




Dark's suggestion of an informational blurb or pamphlet is the place
where a number of developers could come together directly.  If we
formed some sort of organization of our own, that worked with, and/or
through the more politically minded organizations, it's possible they
might take more notice of us.  Also too, defraying cost of printing
might be easier if each developer contributed x amount and had x
amount of space.  It would mean you'd be advertising in some cases
with your competition, but, if the real issue is that not enough
people know about the market at all, then that might be a way to get
info into the community.  Audyssey might be a good launch point for
such an item, since many developers subscribe.  Audyssey has a history
of helping blind people connect to game developers, and it's exactly
the sort of proactive approach that the political organizations
attempt to take.  Further, we have developers here from multiple
nations, so we could approach visually impaired organizations in
multiple countries at once, and show that this is a global phenomenon.
If it was sold on the grounds of promoting not only independent
visually impaired entrepreneurs, but also the gamers who enjoy their
work, it might be able to crack the shell where one or two small
developers might not.

Just a thought,

Jeremy



On 6/15/15, gamers-requ...@audyssey.org <gamers-requ...@audyssey.org> 
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  info AudioGames Game Engine (dark)
   2. Re:  tips for playing bg chess (dark)
   3. Re:  tips for playing bg chess (Ron Schamerhorn)
   4. Re:  info AudioGames Game Engine (Thomas Ward)
   5. Re:  info AudioGames Game Engine (dark)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:27:27 +0100
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Message-ID: <310941689A6043FBA74A76411331CCD7@ownere8ba8066c>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Hi Knick.


that is an idea, though reselling is also quite a pain to setup as 
well,

particularly sinse in the past when it's been tried with audiogames it
hasn't worked out well.

All the best,

Dark.

There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is 
vast



and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than 
even

the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Adamson" <n...@ndadamson.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine



An alternative is to set up contacts with resellers around the world 
who

go to the conventions already but often they take commission.





On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:17, dark <d...@xgam.org> wrote:

Hi Tom.

Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover

certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to 
send


someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it.

I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach.

As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I

discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the 
green
dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those  thanks to a 
small
one line paragraph in the rnib  braille advertising  leaflet with 
the

silly name of "welcome to a world of"

I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the

whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it 
does



make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, 
particularly for



people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only 
just


learning their way around computers.


I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general 
audiogames
introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at 
least
to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated 
in

braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending

copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for 
people to


pick up, find on a desk etc.


such a thing could even be translated into different languages as 
well.


All the best,

Dark.

There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world 
is
vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the 
stars

than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine



Hi Josh,

I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to

market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we 
come
back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are 
blind
themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not 
have a

lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else

required for extensive travel to and from various convention 
centers.
That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the 
game

developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said
conventions in the first place.

Cheers!



On 6/15/15, Josh K <joshknnd1...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the best way to really get games out there would be to 
attend
the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of 
many

many
blind people and agencies.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:32:27 +0100
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips for playing bg chess
Message-ID: <25ABD9FED6FE4BA28434786208F40FED@ownere8ba8066c>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response

Hi Josh.

Effectively your asking how to play chess and that is a complex thing.

Short answr, should you examine the hole board and try to predict what 
your


opponent will do? yes, that is how to play chess.


This is why I personally cannot play chess examining the board square 
by
square on computer, I need the  physcial board in front of me. I've 
tried

playing computer versions with the actual board, but because nobody is
checking the position I'll usually find something has gone wrong in me

moving peaces and there is a descrepency between me and the computer 
and the


game has to be abandoned.

This is another reason I'd love to see a full tactile display.


In fairness I'll admit I have trouble with spacial comprehention, and 
just
as I can't play chess on computer square by square I equally cannot 
play
sudocu or boggle type games well either, though obviously lots of 
people

can, though I suspect their spacial awareness is better than mine.

Beware the Grue!

DArk.

There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is 
vast



and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than 
even

the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh K" <joshknnd1...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 4:56 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] tips for playing bg chess



hey I would like some tips for playing bg chess. I am totally blind 
so
cannot see the screen. I start by moving my pawns out first d2-d4 
c2-c4
and then I try to move out the nights g1-f3 and a bishop c1-e3 after 
first



moving a pawn c2-c4. But then it seems to get complicated. Do I have 
to
examine the board each move and look at all possible moves of all my 
white



pieces to see which can be captured? also how can I better predict 
the
computer's next move computer set to beginner so that I know if say 
the

white bishop can move forward or should move back and then which way

forward or back s-w to n-e or n-w to s-e? I feel like I'm missing 
obvious


things like I should have moved a rook two squares over to capture an

opponents piece but missed it because I thought I should have moved 
the

night up or back for some reason.


thanks for any help. or is chess just really difficult to play if you 
are


blind and should i stick to cards instead?


--
follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:40:31 -0400
From: Ron Schamerhorn <blindwon...@cogeco.ca>
To: Gamers Discussion list <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips for playing bg chess
Message-ID: <557effff.90...@cogeco.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


Also there are keystrokes in the BG Chess game to do most of the 
options

you mentioned.  Suggesting moves, is the piece safe etc.

Ron




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:06:33 -0400
From: Thomas Ward <thomasward1...@gmail.com>
To: Gamers Discussion list <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Message-ID:
<caafbg11b7rfvrav2yfstwvoyxntydubi4u+n+mha9_zmx-q...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Dark,

That might work assuming a game developer can get the blindness
organizations interested in promoting their games or allowing their
clients to see the article on audio games. The problem is I find NFB
and other organizations like it very institutional about various
things and may not be as receptive of audio games as one would like.
Although, my personal experience isn't that extensive I can say I  can
recall a few cases where I approached someone on the topic only to get
the brush-off from those kinds of folks.

For example, several years ago I remember when I was losing my sight I
was sent to a training course on Jaws and other adaptive products. At
the time I had just come from a sighted world of mainstream games so
innocently inquired of the instructor if he knew of an accessible
games =that were Jaws accessible. The reply I got in return was that
computers were used for work and not play. That I shouldn't spend my
time with games and that other junk. I was shocked at that attitude,
and have discovered there are many in the adaptive tech industry with
that same attitude that computers are for work not play mindset.

I can't say how extensively it runs in the NFB, ACB, and other circles
but my initial encounter with organizations like them was not a
positive one. So brailing up a pamphlet and sending it to the various
organizations may work or it may not depending on how they view
sharing it with their clients. Although, it might be worth a shot for
a developer to try and advertise through those sorts of organizations
as they would be able to get developers in touch with the community
beyond our little audio games community.

Cheers!


On 6/15/15, dark <d...@xgam.org> wrote:

Hi Tom.

Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover
certain


geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send 
someone

the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it.

I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach.

As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I
discovered


through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon 
and

ashes of angels. I found out about those  thanks to a small one line

paragraph in the rnib  braille advertising  leaflet with the silly 
name

of
"welcome to a world of"

I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the

whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it 
does
make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly 
for
people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only 
just

learning their way around computers.

I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames

introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at 
least

to
sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in
braille
and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of
that!


to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, 
find on

a

desk etc.


such a thing could even be translated into different languages as 
well.


All the best,

Dark.

There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world 
is

vast

and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than
even
the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:39:22 +0100
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Message-ID: <84B909259C5C427BB4825ADF89221D66@ownere8ba8066c>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Hi Tom.


Funny the "computers aren't for play" attitude sinse to be honest I 
wouldn't


have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with

supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the 
Iphone
(indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my 
Iphone).



Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames 
actually
teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives 
directional
positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is 
geting

more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the
zombocalypse actually does! happen :D.


the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they 
certainly
have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is "most 
blind

people aren't interested in that sort of thing" which is why they only

currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to 
the sort


of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for.


I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more 
receptive



such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a 
while
ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side 
has

fallen off recently.


That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, 
sinse

obviously if it's not out there people won't know.

All the best,

dark.




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