Aw, We were doing so well there for a minute and then it got into wars! I agree with Carol about needing to move on to a new topic. Laura, I think your emails are getting out of line with the purpose of the group.
Let's get back to producing ideas and methods, no? Carissa On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, <gendergap-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>wrote: > Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to > gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > gendergap-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and > transgender, sublist for male supporters (Ryan Kaldari) > 2. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking > gendergap: (carolmoor...@verizon.net) > 3. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking > gendergap: (SlimVirgin) > 4. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and > transgender, sublist for male supporters (Erik Moeller) > 5. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and > transgender, sublist for male supporters (Fred Bauder) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:00 -0700 > From: Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list > for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters > To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > Message-ID: <4d814c6c.8020...@wikimedia.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Marc, I don't think you're improving the "communication problem" you > describe by telling people their ideas are "nonsense", "self-serving", > or "insulting". Yes, Laura's ideas are challenging, but getting overly > defensive doesn't help the discussion. > > Kaldari > > On 3/16/11 1:58 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: > > > > ---------- > > *From: *Marc Riddell <michaeldavi...@comcast.net> > > *Date: *Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:32 -0400 > > *To: *Laura Hale <la...@fanhistory.com> > > *Subject: *Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for > > women and transgender, sublist for male supporters > > > > Laura, your interpretation of my words is strikingly self-serving, and > > your solutions would serve to widen whatever gap exists in the > > Project. This entire "problem" is not one of gender, but of individual > > persons having problems communicating with a particular group of other > > persons. My question to all of those who state that they have a > > problem communicating with, or feel intimidated by, a male in the > > venue of a mailing list such as this, is do you have the same problem > > in person? There are many, many strong, intelligent voices in the > > Wikipedia Project who also happen to be female. And to include them in > > this "gendergap", and suggest that this is strictly a gender issue, is > > an insult to them. > > > > Marc > > > > on 3/16/11 4:06 PM, Laura Hale at la...@fanhistory.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Marc Riddell > > <michaeldavi...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > This is simply, nonsense! > > > > > > That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. In my experience, > > there are two general groups of women: > > > > 1. One who welcome men as participants in events specifically > > targeting women, because the women feel the men can learn. > > 2. One who don't want men involved because they feel women should > > work towards their own self interests and that women behave > > differently around men. > > > > Don't you people realize that separating this List > > into two distinct ones would underline, reinforce and actually > > signify the > > very "gendergap" you are allegedly trying to resolve. > > > > > > This pretty much is why I think we need men off the list. While > > you're intending to or not, I'm reading this as "Don't you > > understand that the only way women can succeed it by having men > > involved! You need men!" If you're not intending to send the > > message: Women cannot succeed with out men!, then you may want to > > reconsider your wording. > > > > And I'd argue the opposite: Men have done an awful job at > > recruiting women to be involved with Wikipedia. The current > > problems exist because men have tried to "solve" this problem. > > > > This is people talking > > with people. If there is a female or male here who has a problem > > communicating with, or in the presence of, another gender - > > they do have a > > problem. > > > > > > Translation: "Women! You're the problem! If you could stop > > engaging in female modes of communication, we could fix this > > problem! " > > > > This list is NOT a general list for increasing the participation > > rates of people. If you want to have a list dedicated to > > generally increasing the participation rates of people on > > Wikipedia, then fork off and do that. > > > > > > But a website Mailing List such as this is not the place to > > resolve > > it. > > > > > > Am I supposed to interpret this as you claiming that this list has > > a mission that will never succeed because it acknowledges there > > are gender differences and different approaches are needed to get > > different audiences? As a woman, a representative of a minority > > group on Wikipedia, how am I supposed to respond to you? I can > > tell you that this post of yours makes me feel distinctly > > uncomfortable posting to this list. It seems to put men in the > > position of power above women, demanding that women participate > > only in male modes of communication, that women on the list can't > > talk about genuine concerns they have as women because they are > > going to get blown off, and that feelings of men on the list are > > more important then women. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gendergap mailing list > > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110316/d01a63d2/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:52:14 -0400 > From: carolmoor...@verizon.net > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ... > Proposal: Forking gendergap: > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects > <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > Message-ID: <4d814d2e.4060...@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda, > and whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, > you can be aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all > women lists over the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, > condescending and disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's > proposal and I think we need to drop it. > > On 3/16/2011 7:01 PM, B?ria Lima wrote: > > I completely agree with Fluffy. > > _____ > > /B?ria Lima/ > > Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt> > > (351) 963 953 042 > > > > /Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter > > livre acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que > > estamos a fazer./ > > > > > > 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy <chaoticflu...@gmail.com > > <mailto:chaoticflu...@gmail.com>> > > > > I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My > > views on this topic are basically that: > > > > 1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and > > dismissive in a lot of cases > > 2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that > > I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four > > men telling me how it's not a problem > > 3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to > > function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here > > 4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other > > than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive. > > Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would > > support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling > > or dismissive behavior > > 5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify > > themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here > > because they want to work on the gender gap. That said... > > 6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that > > some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that > > offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to > > be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU > > ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women > > unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on. > > 7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean > > feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this. > > Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're > > treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so? > > Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to > > make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN. > > > > -Fluff > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110316/6dec2e50/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:59:05 -0600 > From: SlimVirgin <slimvir...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ... > Proposal: Forking gendergap: > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects > <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > Message-ID: > <aanlktiktaarthhg2ceefg9n4f4gzucgq8tpz6nfer...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 17:52, <carolmoor...@verizon.net> wrote: > > I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda, > and > > whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, you can > be > > aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all women lists > over > > the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, condescending and > > disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's proposal and I > think > > we need to drop it. > > > It's true, though, that there are things I would post about Wikipedia > on a women-only list, if I could be 100 percent sure that's what it > was. And as if to prove that point, I just typed out an example, then > deleted it because I felt uncomfortable. :) So even if Laura's > proposal isn't being supported, I hope it gives food for thought. And > there's nothing to stop her from setting up such a list herself. > > Sarah > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:59:01 -0700 > From: Erik Moeller <e...@wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for > women and transgender, sublist for male supporters > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects > <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > Message-ID: > <aanlktimkiy-feah7nsxk9kkzaqhzhxru_x2scxw59...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Laura, > > I don't find the tone of your messages in this thread an acceptable > basis for constructive conversation. On that basis, I am going to > disengage from this thread. > > Respectfully, > Erik > -- > Erik M?ller > Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation > > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:14:10 -0600 (MDT) > From: "Fred Bauder" <fredb...@fairpoint.net> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for > women and transgender, sublist for male supporters > To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" > <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > Message-ID: > <43584.66.243.192.69.1300320850.squir...@webmail.fairpoint.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > On 3/16/11 1:42 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > >> I will continue to joke around a bit, but you're free to not be amused. > > > > Fred, I really don't think this response is appropriate. If people are > > complaining that your humor is exacerbating the problem rather helping > > the discussion, don't you think it would be sensible to exercise some > > discretion? > > > > Kaldari > > I am exercising considerable discretion. I'm not going to walk on > eggshells though. Throwing a hissy fit over every word or phrase you > don't like is no good either. We deal with disruptive people and > disruptive language 24/7. In a way, that is what we do. I've seen > Mau-Mauing before, and I don't respect it; I may make fun of it. > > The reference is literary, see > > https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Radical_Chic_%26_Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers#.22Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers.22 > > Fred > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > > End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25 > **************************************** > -- 510-984-3458 | Skype: Carissa.W www.carissawodehouse.com @CWhoa
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap