On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:22 AM, Theo10011 <de10...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org> > wrote: >> >> Yes, the traditional usage has been predominantly masculine, but in modern >> usage, "they" is the dominant form. See my reply at >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Gender-neutral_language#She_before_he.3F > > > Err.......Ok, this might be a cultural thing......but why are you citing the > translator notes for the New international version of the Bible for a > grammatical choice? > > The translators notes mention, "The gender-neutral pronoun ‟they” > (‟them”/‟their”) is by far the most common way that English-language > speakers and writers today refer back to singular antecedents". The article > also goes on to mention, "instances of what grammarians are increasingly > calling the ‟singular they” (‟them” or ‟their”) appear three times more > frequently than generic masculine forms."
I agree, it would probably make more sense to refer to style manuals that deal with new texts, and write a Wikipedia article on gender representation in the Bible. The given translation might or might not add to the original, I am no expert, but it sure is an interesting topic to delve into (see e.g. http://www.bible-researcher.com/gender.html) > > The wide-spread modern usage is shifting towards "they", again "impelled by > the desire to avoid sexist implications of HE", which is exactly what this > particular case involved. Grammarians apparently dispute the usage. It might > even come down to a stylistic choice in the end. We have a nice article on singular they, the interesting thing is that even Shakespeare and others before him have used it in its current meaning, so its not a modern invention (regardless of its current Renaissance). From a prescriptive point of view, one might dispute it, from a descriptivist point of view it is certainly part of the language. It is up to the English Wikipedia community to decide what its house style will include. As we are on this topic, it would be interesting to see (again, in a nicely collected Wikipedia article) to how pairs of gendered expressions behave in different languages. Without further proof, I would probably not read too much politics into any usage. For example, we have in English "he or she" but we also use "ladies and gentlemen" and probably there is a balance somewhere in the usage of "men and women" vs. "women and men".[1] In Hungarian we would probably say "nők és férfiak" ('women and men') and "hölgyek és urak" ('ladies and gentlemen'), while fortunately we only have on pronoun for 'he or she': "ő" – so this problem doesn't come up. It is probably different for various languages. Also, as Theo notes, it would be interesting to cite some good cognitive linguistics study on the effects of pronouns on people. I have read about studies that show that the gender of objects in different languages affects the speakers way of thinking of them (e.g. describing a bridge as masculine or feminine based on its gender in the language), but it would be interesting to see if the order of pronouns has any measurable effect[2]. Anyhow, an interesting practice that might go against gender stereotyping – although probably not in a factual encyclopedia article – is to use simply "she" where one would have to use "he", "he or she" or "they". Best regards, Bence (also not a native speaker; male) [1] The balance is in favour of the former, but for example, the UN uses both with equal frequency, while preferring "he or she" over "she or he" 20:1. [2] I am not sure about cognitive connotations, but the strange order of the phrase might be more difficult to read, and possibly cause problems who have difficulties reading, thus having an effect on accessibility of the text. (Probably not an issue in the great scheme of things, but something to consider for Simple Wikipedia if one was to transfer any agreed change in usage) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
