What do you propose a "take back the night" would be like? On Nov 30, 2014 8:12 AM, "Kathleen McCook" <klmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, one can see easily how they move from topic to topic. Connected and > ensuring their POV dominates. > > The issue of feminism should not be defined by men whose motivation seems > to be to create an environment where women are "free" to be what they (the > men discussed here ) imagine to us to be. > > I believe that Marie's statements about keeping these issues off one's > main course are the result of continuous attacks. > > Wikipedia needs a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT movement. In my days on campus women > attacked were told they shouldn't be out at night.So marches began to TAKE > BACK THE NIGHT. > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:16 AM, JJ Marr <jjm...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> To quote you in the context of your dispute over a video, you say "I >> dispute that it "makes little sense" and why does it even need to add >> informational value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article >> as pictures and videos often are?" I ask why don't you take that dispute up >> with the editor in question? >> >> Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no context >> to this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content dispute. >> >> Please explain why this is relevant to the gender gap, since you are >> sending it out to everyone on the gender gap mailing list, and secondly, >> why a minor content dispute on enwiki is relevant to the Wikimedia gender >> gap community as a whole. >> On Nov 30, 2014 1:47 AM, "Marie Earley" <eir...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing >>> one (I've checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway.... >>> >>> Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this: >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward >>> >>> ...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue? >>> >>> In particular this comment: >>> "...As has been indicated on the talk page of the proposed decision, >>> *repeatedly,* there is some question as to exactly *which* women this >>> group seems to be reaching out toward, specifically, whether it is more or >>> less of a more or less radical feminist perspective...." >>> >>> I thought it summed up in a nutshell what the GGTF was really up >>> against. It's a kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism >>> * Are you now or have you ever been a feminist who believes that sex >>> work is the opposite of feminism? >>> Anyone who answers yes that question is judged to be a "radical", a >>> subversive who wants to push POV and therefore they are fair game. >>> >>> On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of categories >>> of feminist >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=544136790 >>> and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to >>> organize it chronologically and it meant that "anti-pornography feminists", >>> "anti-prostitution feminists" and "socialist feminists" could go onto the >>> list >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=545667727 >>> >>> The list has recently been changed to this: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with a >>> couple of editors to see how we can improve it further. >>> >>> I've largely avoided trouble by sticking to admin based work such as >>> this, and similar work: >>> Cleaning up bibliographies, e.g. Joseph Schumpeter, from this: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=633566034#Major_works >>> to this: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=634343909#Major_works >>> >>> Creating an article for the International Association for Feminist >>> Economics >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_Feminist_Economics >>> and improving the article for the Human Development and Capability >>> Association >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_and_Capability_Association >>> then creating biographies for past presidents of IAFFE and fellows of >>> the HDCA. >>> Adding DOBs to notable scholars and then adding them to Wiki's calendar >>> (births). >>> >>> These organisations / individuals argues against sex work on the grounds >>> of the perception of women that is generated (i.e. as a thing / object). >>> The problem with the MRA, pro-porn, pro-sex work POV is they have no >>> problem with anti-porn etc. POV provided it is in a box labelled "mad" or >>> "religious" with a sub-text that the only people that could possibly >>> support that POV are from the moral right and are probably racist and >>> homophobic as well. The other problem that the MRA have is that, human >>> development and capability, which includes feminist economics / inequality >>> / care work etc. collectively constitutes a 'single broad topic' >>> (WP:SPATG), so they are unable to stop editors, who wish to edit in this >>> area, from doing so. The natural place for this work is within the Gender >>> Studies project. Which is why they write nonsense like this: >>> http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fighting-wikipedia-corruption-censorship/ >>> (if there were really the kind of censorship that they are talking about on >>> WP then there would be no Pornography Project). >>> >>> Any attempt to show 3 distinct POVs >>> (a) Pro-sex work >>> (b) Right-wing anti-sex work (on moral / judgemental grounds), and >>> (c) Left-wing anti-sex work (on negative perception grounds) - the POV >>> that dare not speak its name >>> ... is met with a steel fist hammered onto the table. >>> >>> I made a video for use in the article "sex wars", an article which is >>> all about the separation between (b) and (c) >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Feminist_sex_wars&oldid=546995190 >>> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Feminist_sex_wars.ogv> >>> It was deleted instantly on the grounds that the "Video makes little >>> sense and does not add to informational value of article." I dispute that >>> it "makes little sense" and why does it even need to add informational >>> value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article as pictures >>> and videos often are? >>> >>> As soon as I step off the path of admin related tasks that the MRA-mob >>> can't get me for, and stray into article content I am jumped on, >>> obstensibly for technical reasons but they are almost exclusively by >>> editors whose other edits are connected to porn and sex-positive feminism, >>> who have pretty much hijacked the Feminism project and they are trying to >>> do as much damage as possible to the Gender Studies project as they can as >>> well. >>> >>> It may be time for an article on "fourth-wave feminism" which is >>> separate to the "history of feminism", but the article would have to say >>> that the term is used by both (a) and (c), >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism#Fourth_Wave . You're >>> not supposed to mention (c), you're only supposed to mention (a) and (b) - >>> and then arch your eyebrows at the moral and out-of-touch group that is >>> (b). Anyone trying to create it would run into the MRA trying to lump (b) >>> and (c) together. The talk page would be full of stuff like, "well the >>> article should say that, 'group (b) have been called fourth-wave, but it is >>> just a very, few number of places and the term is far more attributed to >>> group (a) than any other group of feminists'. >>> >>> This message is longer than I originally intended it to be but I do >>> think that there are a lot of well meaning editors on WP who are either >>> unaware or a bit *naïve* when it comes the antics of the people that we >>> are talking about. It is also *naïve* to think that they are not >>> co-ordinating their handiwork off-wiki. >>> >>> Marie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gendergap mailing list >>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
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