Unfortunately, death threat jokes are like airport bomb jokes, best not uttered. Even if they are part of a Steve Martin comedy routine, if you don’t get the joke, you are receiving a threat or others misread it as a threat. Clearly getting a joke depends on a shared cultural knowledge (I’ve never heard of this Steve Martin line either) and in a worldwide multi-cultural multilingual organisation, shared culture can’t be assumed. It’s like the use of swear words which may not be offensive in some cultures but are in others. I think we do have discourage the use of jokes just as we should discourage the use of swear words or words that may have unintended interpretations in some cultures. Obviously most people when they make their original statement probably have no ill intent, just unaware how it might be misinterpreted. But I think after you let people know that certain words are likely to give offence in some quarters and they persist in using them, you have to suspect the offence is intended or they are simply arrogant people indifferent to the impact on their remarks (either of which is a reason to be taking action against them). But I don’t think we should belittle the concern of those who received what seems to them as a threat or offensive remark. “Die you …” is something to remove from our vocabularies, even in jest. We should not be saying “silly you for not recognising it was a joke ”.
As regards the police, the Internet is a major jurisdictional problem. If one Wikipedia user makes a death threat against another on-wiki or via email, which police do you call? The San Francisco police are unlikely to be interested in threats if neither party are in SF. I think you do need to go via the Foundation to get whatever real world information they can provide in terms of real names or locations derived from IP addresses etc. Even then, the information will often be insufficient to determine real world identities at which point I think the police will lose interest very rapidly. Police have to prioritise and it must be difficult for them to see the point of investigating internet threats (even if there is evidence the parties may be within their jurisdiction) over threats being traded between next door neighbours where there is a clear response that they can make by sending a police car around to “have a word”. Would/should Wikipedia policies allow an equivalent response? That is, allow the creation of an account called “Queensland Police” and then for that account to go to a User Talk page and say “Queensland Police here – stop those threats or else we’ll prosecute you under Section 123 of the Whatever Act” accompanied perhaps by a photo of a police car with flashing lights? Kerry From: Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: Sunday, 27 September 2015 6:30 AM To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats! Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have characterized as a death threat over the years. Nasty as it may be to say "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface. Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna jump off a bridge". They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc). And it is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there. Risker/Anne On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER <rupert.thur...@gmail.com <mailto:rupert.thur...@gmail.com> > wrote: risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally. carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming? rupert On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com <mailto:risker...@gmail.com> > wrote: The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers. I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org <mailto:emerge...@wikimedia.org> " is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world. Risker/Anne On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc <carolmoor...@verizon.net <mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net> > wrote: I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before. In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.) As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out. That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why. I wrote: On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote: Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]]. I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment. Risker/Anne On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com <mailto:neot...@gmail.com> <mailto:neot...@gmail.com <mailto:neot...@gmail.com> >> wrote: @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmoor...@verizon.net <mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net> <mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net <mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net> >> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122> &diff=672630056&oldid=672391122 Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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