I have not taught APL nor J to millions of people. I have shown it to a handful of people.
In my experience, people with a grade school education can pick up the concepts easily. i. 10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 + i. 10 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 3 5 + 7 11 13 9 14 18 2 3 + 4 5 6 |length error ... ... easy stuff... Similarly, the labs that Ken Iverson wrote seem to be easy for someone to work through, when they are interested in the subject he was presenting. [Not putting an example of that, here.] That said, interest is certainly an issue. Especially when we are talking about the issue you are raising, which is popularity. Popularity issues, and culture, hinge on a variety of issues, and usefulness -- when it's a significant issue -- is typically not the most critical factor. Popularity is about how people relate to each other, it's about friendship, it's about approachability, it's about rumors, and of course, it's about popularity [recursively]. So, for example, the organization of the wiki might have a small incremental effect on J's popularity. As for what APL/J is good for... I could list examples [and, for example, there's a reason that New York city has a sizable J user group], but when we are talking about programming we are not so much talking about current uses as future uses, and examples are present tense and past tense. [Or, to be fair, in the context of popularity, we are talking about variations on a theme -- so... for example... APL has for decades been good for making money in various ways.] Personally, though, I use J to help me think about various programming issues, and for fun. Does that help? -- Raul On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Björn Helgason <[email protected]> wrote: > After decades of teaching APL/J to millions of people do we know how to > present it and do we know why some people love it and why others could not > be bothered? > > We actually do not know very much how many people have seen presentations > nor how many are actually using it afterwards. > > Those who have APL/J installed are in many cases using applications and not > actually using the language directly. > > Do we know what APL/J is good for? > > Is the number of people doing programming in APL/J growing? > > Why do they do it? > > Why are others not using APL/J? > > Some people seem to love these languages but do we have any numbers or > statistics to base our assumtions on? > > 2012/11/16 Raul Miller <[email protected]> > >> I disagree: >> >> I think that J is supposed to be easy to learn. >> >> That said, it's easiest to learn in the context of specific examples. >> The biggest problem with learning the whole of the language is finding >> examples which are relevant to your interests. >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Björn Helgason <[email protected]> wrote: >> > J is not supposed to be easy to learn. >> > >> > Those who do are well rewarded. >> > >> > As with other precious gems it is hard to get but appreciated all the >> more >> > once you do get it. >> > On Nov 16, 2012 6:04 PM, "Skip Cave" <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> The JSoftware site has a tremendous amount of useful information on it, >> >> probably more than most programming language sites. However, it is just >> >> incredibly difficult to find information that one needs relevant to a >> >> specific issue. >> >> >> >> The "Getting Started" set of articles on the JSoftware site is a good >> way >> >> to introduce a newbie to the language, but most newbies won't want to >> plow >> >> through the complete set of docs suggested on those pages. A typical >> >> programmer will read some of the overview docs, and then start searching >> >> for topics relevant to a specific problem they want to solve. That's >> when >> >> they get into trouble. >> >> >> >> There are several reasons for this. A major problem is the semantics >> that J >> >> uses. J semantics (eg. noun, verb, rank, hook, fork) are markedly >> different >> >> than other programming languages. So when a newbie searches for typical >> >> programming issues (function, subroutine, class, etc.) he is met with an >> >> uncomprehending "blank stare" from the Wiki, as the search returns >> minimal, >> >> mostly confusing, results. >> >> >> >> Also, It is the nature of the Wiki mechanism that there is no strong, >> >> central organizing scheme. The J Wiki has contributions from many >> authors, >> >> who often have different ideas on how their submissions are titled and >> >> categorized. This means that articles on similar topics can be in >> >> completely different sections, with very different titles. A good >> example >> >> of this is if you type in "FAQ" in the search box, the first article >> tells >> >> you how to create a FAQ in the Wiki. >> >> >> >> I posted this to start a discussion on how we can improve this issue. I >> >> have some ideas, which I will present in another post. I have a meeting >> to >> >> attend now. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Skip Cave >> >> Cave Consulting LLC >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > > -- > Björn Helgason, Verkfræðingur > Fornustekkum II > 781 Hornafirði, > t-póst: [email protected] > gsm: +3546985532 > twitter: @flugfiskur > http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming > > > Tæknikunnátta höndlar hið flókna, sköpunargáfa er meistari einfaldleikans > > góður kennari getur stigið á tær án þess að glansinn fari af skónum > /|_ .-----------------------------------. > ,' .\ / | Með léttri lund verður | > ,--' _,' | Dagurinn í dag | > / / | Enn betri en gærdagurinn | > ( -. | `-----------------------------------' > | ) | (\_ _/) > (`-. '--.) (='.'=) ♖♘♗♕♔♙ > `. )----' (")_(") ☃☠ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
