I have to agree with Ted's synopsis. After reviewing the podling's proposal compared to current date, it seems that there's actually been a dramatic decrease in committers since inception. I didn't realize that when originally looking.
I do however want to clarify - I think Johnzon is mature. The PPMC understands the apache way and has done a great job in incubation. I think I pitched this, a long while ago, but would it be a bad move to graduate into a sub-project under TomEE or Geronimo? AFAIK, everyone but Hendrik is already on those PMCs. John On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 6:41 PM Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> wrote: > My suggestion would be to work on building community first. > > Not pulling in new committers and PMC members is evidence of a serious > community bug. It could be lack of marketing, unfriendly natives, > cliquishness or an idea that just doesn't have legs. Probably it is > something I didn't think of. > > In any case, it would be a really good idea for the current community to > show that they can deal with this problem so we don't wind up with a > top-level project that doesn't work. > > Also, even though I have no idea if it is a reasonable outcome, you should > always explore the question of where the overhead of a top-level Apache > project is even the appropriate outcome. Such a self-examination is always > a bit hard and can be very emotionally overloaded, but it is important to > stop for a moment to consider what the best outcome for the project, the > users of the project and the members of the project really is. For some > projects, graduation as a small TLP is right. For somewhat more projects, > transition to a non-Apache project structure is right. > > In most cases, however, it really is best to slog a bit longer and get good > at building up the community. > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Jean-Louis MONTEIRO <jeano...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > So, what are the next steps? > > > > Do we have to postpone the graduation and try to bring up more > contributors > > before? > > Or do we want to still graduate and work out the community growth after? > > > > Jean-Louis > > > > > > > > Le lun. 4 avr. 2016 à 02:50, Niall Pemberton <niall.pember...@gmail.com> > a > > écrit : > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 11:54 PM, John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Niali, > > >> > > >> I don't disagree with your assessment. In actuality, Johnzon has only > > >> added one committer in its 22 months in the incubator, who later > joined > > >> their PPMC and is now slated to be their VP. However, adding > committers > > >> isn't the only form of community growth we expect to see when > > graduating. > > >> JIRA tickets, user input and seeing the developers interact on the > > various > > >> lists are also taken into account. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the podling has some potential new committers in the > > >> pipeline > > >> is also great to hear. > > >> > > >> The minimum viable project is three PMC members. Johnzon is a bit > > bigger > > >> than that. You also have to keep in mind that there are some projects > > >> that > > >> are just gigantic. Not every project needs to match that structure. > > >> > > > > > > I did some more research and looked at the proposed PMC participation > in > > > the 10 Johnzon release votes (see attachment) and there are four active > > > members. I will withdraw my vote, but I think Johnzon with 4 people and > > > only 2 really active on the code is borderline and it needs to recruit > > more > > > people to be sustainable long term. > > > > > > Niall > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> John > > >> > > >> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 5:58 PM Niall Pemberton < > > niall.pember...@gmail.com > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Struberg > > <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid > > >> > > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Please look at more current data > > >> > > > > >> > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-johnzon/graphs/contributors > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > I didn't see your commits today - but otherwise doesn't look alot > > >> > difference. > > >> > > > >> > Also note that there are patches applied from contributors via Jira > > >> patches > > >> > > and NOT via git-pull. Thus they show not up in the graph above. > > >> > > > > >> > > From that category we have Reinhard Sandtner (apacheId rsandtner) > > >> which > > >> > is > > >> > > closely looked for as potential committer and Karl Grosse (also on > > our > > >> > > watch list). Both provided patches and contributed in hacking > > >> sessions. > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > Thats great, but I agree with the June, Sept & Dec 2015 board > reports > > >> > about growing the committers/ppmc - and I don't understand why that > > was > > >> > reported as a graduation requirement and now its not and Johnzon is > > >> ready? > > >> > > > >> > Niall > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > LieGrue, > > >> > > strub > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Sunday, 3 April 2016, 20:18, Niall Pemberton < > > >> > > niall.pember...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > > > Johnzon reports for June, Sept & Dec 2015 all listed "adding > new > > >> > > > committers/pmc members" in the "most important issues to address > > in > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > move towards graduation" - but in that time there were no > changes > > to > > >> > the > > >> > > > community. So what changed to make the ppmc/mentors now think > the > > >> > project > > >> > > > is ready to graduate? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Johnzon has added Hendrik Saly as a committer/ppmc member (Aug > > 2014 > > >> / > > >> > Apr > > >> > > > 2015), but of the 6 original committers listed on the original > > >> > proposal, > > >> > > > only 3 are on proposed TLP, so the statement in the Maturity > model > > >> > saying > > >> > > > "List of commmitters and PPMC members has grown during > incubation" > > >> is > > >> > > > a bit > > >> > > > misleading. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > From looking at commits, there are only 2 active people[1] and > for > > >> me > > >> > > thats > > >> > > > a concern for the projects long term viability and so my vote is > > -1 > > >> to > > >> > > > graduation. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > [1] > > http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.fleece.commits > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Niall > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Hendrik Dev < > > hendrikde...@gmail.com > > >> > > > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> The Apache Johnzon community has discussed and voted on > > >> graduation to > > >> > > >> a top level project. The vote passed with 8 +1 votes (5 from > the > > >> > PPMC) > > >> > > >> and no 0 or -1 votes. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Incubation Status: > > >> > > >> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/johnzon.html > > >> > > >> Maturity Assessment: > > >> > > >> https://s.apache.org/d88S > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> Discussions: > > >> > > >> https://s.apache.org/5vxO > > >> > > >> https://s.apache.org/8VkX > > >> > > >> Vote: > > >> > > >> https://s.apache.org/suuK > > >> > > >> (http://markmail.org/message/mawumtfqokgye5xn) > > >> > > >> Result: > > >> > > >> https://s.apache.org/Erd0 > > >> > > >> (http://markmail.org/message/qmqvk56ccqkq2gob) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Please vote on the resolution pasted below to graduate Apache > > >> Johnzon > > >> > > >> from the incubator to top level project. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> [ ] +1 Graduate Apache Johnzon from the Incubator. > > >> > > >> [ ] +0 Don't care. > > >> > > >> [ ] -1 Don't graduate Apache Johnzon from the Incubator > because > > >> ... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> This vote will be open for at least 72 hours. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Many thanks to our mentors and everyone else for the support, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Hendrik Saly on behalf of the Apache Johnzon PPMC > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Apache Johnzon top-level project resolution: > > >> > > >> ============================================ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best > > >> > > >> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the > > >> > > >> Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management > > >> > > >> Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of > > >> > > >> open-source software, for distribution at no charge to > > >> > > >> the public, related to JSR-353 compliant JSON parsing and a > > >> > > >> set of useful modules to help with the usage of JSR-353 > > >> > > >> as well as JSR successors (like JSR-374) or related JSRs > > >> > > >> (like JSR-367). > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management > > >> > > >> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Johnzon Project", > > >> > > >> be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the > > >> > > >> Foundation; and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the Apache Johnzon Project be and hereby is > > >> > > >> responsible for the creation and maintenance of software > > >> > > >> related to JSR-353 compliant JSON parsing and a > > >> > > >> set of useful modules to help with the usage of JSR-353 > > >> > > >> as well as JSR successors (like JSR-374) or related JSRs > > >> > > >> (like JSR-367); and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Johnzon" > be > > >> > > >> and hereby is created, the person holding such office to > > >> > > >> serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair > > >> > > >> of the Apache Johnzon Project, and to have primary > > responsibility > > >> > > >> for management of the projects within the scope of > > >> > > >> responsibility of the Apache Johnzon Project; and be it > further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and > > >> > > >> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the > > >> > > >> Apache Johnzon Project: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> * Justin Mclean <jmclean AT apache.org> > > >> > > >> * Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau AT apache.org> > > >> > > >> * Jean-Louis Monteiro <jlmonteiro AT apache.org> > > >> > > >> * Mark Struberg <struberg AT apache.org> > > >> > > >> * Hendrik Saly <salyh AT apache.org> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Hendrik Saly > > (salyh) > > >> > > >> be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Johnzon, > to > > >> > > >> serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the > > >> > > >> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until > > >> > > >> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, > > >> > > >> or until a successor is appointed; and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Johnzon PMC be and hereby is > > >> > > >> tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to > > >> > > >> encourage open development and increased participation in the > > >> > > >> Apache Johnzon Project; and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the Apache Johnzon Project be and hereby > > >> > > >> is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache > > >> > > >> Incubator Johnzon podling; and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache > > >> > > >> Incubator Johnzon podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator > > >> > > >> Project are hereafter discharged. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Hendrik Saly (salyh, hendrikdev22) > > >> > > >> @hendrikdev22 > > >> > > >> PGP: 0x22D7F6EC > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > > >> general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: > general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > >
