My last sentence below is too terse... I know NetBeans is a different project to AOO. I should not draw a direct comparis0on between the two projects. I hope we can avoid a long thread on how Net Beans is more attractive to developers than other end user projects. However, my more general point of user numbers not being a good indicator is remains.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Ross Gardler > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 8:48 AM > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Subject: RE: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache > NetBeans Incubator Proposal) > > I do not sign the check, but I am responsible for the budgets of the > foundation. > I'm not saying I would not consider such a request (and you could go straight > to the board if I did). I'm saying a case needs to be made rather than a > simple > request for cash (see other mail). > > As for the numbers, user numbers are irrelevant. If that were the metric of > success for an open source project then Open Office would be thriving. > > Ross > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Emilian Bold [mailto:emilian.b...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 2:09 AM > > To: general@incubator.apache.org > > Subject: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache > > NetBeans Incubator Proposal) > > > > Ross Gardler is the current president of the ASF so in a way he does > > sign the check and should be worried about these things. > > > > Still, the number of Java developers is only growing and they need an > > IDE and NetBeans is a major IDE with 1.5 million individual users! > > This number is probably conservative since it excludes all the people > > behind > > (corporate) firewalls. > > > > Helping NetBeans would be for the public good and it really does help > > the other Apache properties such as Ant, Maven, Tomcat, Groovy, etc. > > > > Business wise, NetBeans is a great deal for Apache. The netbeans.org > > domain alone could pull in ads the cost of infrastructure (although > > ASF might have a policy against ads, etc, etc) > > > > > > --emi > > > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com');>> > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that > > > > a move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest > > > > that NetBeans is seeing. > > > > > > > > > OK, we do need to see the basis for that assertion. I think the only > > > thing that cannot be tolerated is assertions without basis. Where is > > > the evidence of "the decline in interest that NetBeans is seeing"? > > > Because, speaking on behalf of the NetBeans community, we are not > > > seeing that, at all. That evidence is not there or, if it is, we > > > need to know > > what it is. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler > > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ross.gard...@microsoft.com');>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > The ASF need to justify spending an extra $10k per year in this > > > > one project at the expense of that $10k going to other projects. > > > > > > > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that > > > > a move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest > > > > that NetBeans is seeing. > > > > > > > > It may sound trivial, but we can support three "traditional" ASF > > > > projects for NetBeans budget. As a charity we need to think > > > > carefully about how we spend our money. A solid argument that this > > > > would reverse the downward trend for NetBeans will go a long way > > > > to reassuring me (as one member, > > > but > > > > also as the person ultimately responsible for paying such a budget > > > request > > > > to the board). > > > > > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Twitter: @rgardler > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ted.dunn...@gmail.com');>> > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 4:04:34 PM > > > > To: general@incubator.apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general@incubator.apache.org');> > > > > Subject: Re: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] > > > > Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal) > > > > > > > > Should this request come from IPMC? Seems like it should be at > > > > least a > > > coop > > > > request between infra (who get the budget and the operational > > > > onus) and incubator (who cause the problem). > > > > > > > > Certainly the budget shouldn't come to the IPMC if approved. > > > > > > > > I will work with the board to determine the best form. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Chris Mattmann > > > > <mattm...@apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mattm...@apache.org');>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Daniel this is great work. Thank you for outlining this. Wow! > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/24/16, 3:17 AM, "Daniel Gruno" <humbed...@apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','humbed...@apache.org');>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > > > > > I've been going over the requirements for NetBeans > > > > > infrastructure, > > > > it's > > > > > ballpark costs, bandwidth, machines needed and so forth, and > > > > > the > > > > cliff > > > > > notes are as follows: > > > > > > > > > > - 40-50TB/month in traffic required (mostly downloads+plugins) > > > > > - 8-13 machines/VMS are required > > > > > - Ballpark hardware costs are between $3k and $10k per year, > > > > depending > > > > > on how much we can move to existing infrastructure and how > > > > > close > > > we > > > > > come to the original setup. The most likely figure we are > > > > > working with > > > > > is $4.9k, but we should be prepared for a larger cost, > > > > > just in > > > > case. > > > > > - The maintenance will be split between infra (downloads, > > > > > web site, > > > > CI, > > > > > new build machines) and the project (services, plugins, > > > > statistics), > > > > > which will undoubtedly incur additional costs in terms of > > > > > infra > > > > time > > > > > spent on this, possibly to the tune of $10-20k in the > > > > > initial > > > > phase. > > > > > > > > > > Certain services like the plugins hosting will rely on Legal > > > > > giving > > > > the > > > > > go-ahead for it, otherwise we'll have to find other people > > > > > willing > > > to > > > > > host this. > > > > > > > > > > Other items like downloads may be offset by CDN providers > > > > > offering their > > > > > assistance, but we should be prepared for this not being the > > > > > case > > > > from > > > > > the beginning, thus the 40-50TB/month. Likewise, some machine > costs > > > > > may be offset by cloud providers offering services for free. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, I would submit to the IPMC that they consider asking > > > > > the > > > board > > > > > for > > > > > a budget of roughly $10k per year for the NetBeans project, > > > > > as well > > > > as > > > > > the additional time required of Infrastructure to implement > > > > > this > > > into > > > > > the existing ASF infra. As we may be able to pool resources > > > > > and > > > > utilize > > > > > the new hardware for multiple projects, the cost may go down in > > > > > the > > > > > coming years, but this is the baseline I suggest we consider when > > > > > approving NetBeans as a new podling. > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > Daniel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > --------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.o > > > rg > > > ');> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general-h...@incubator.apache.org');> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > -- > > > > > --- To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.o > > > rg > > > ');> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general-h...@incubator.apache.org');> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --emi --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
