The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains trademarks...
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgo...@gmail.com> wrote: > +1 for retirement. > > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be > proliferating among the IPMC. > > -Taylor > > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right? > > > > > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lmc...@apache.org> wrote: > >> > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead. > >> I do think my statement was unclear though. > >> > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings. > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache > way > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lmc...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Well said. > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle > >>> as a > >>>> TLP. > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts. > >>>> > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :) > >>>> > >>>> > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently. Or I might be reading your > >>> response wrong. > >>> > >>> Retirement isn't a failure. Podlings are meant to be experiments in > some > >>> cases. Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache > >>> way. > >>> > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects. > >> If > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change > and > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting > >>> periods seems crazy. > >>> > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate, > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes > much > >>> more useful. Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and > >> seem > >>> like a strong community. Until you become a community of 100's of > users. > >>> > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate. This is why the > >>> incubator has no time limit. We do get worried when a podling's been > >> here > >>> for too long. > >>> > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger > >> community. > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs > >> is a > >>>>> "failure". > >>>>> > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for > >> incubation. > >>> To > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug. > >>>>> > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to > >>>> helping > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But > >> there > >>>> are > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have. > >>>>> > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new > >> podling > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP. > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and > >>>> sometimes > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly > >> know. > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will > >> be > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache > >>>> license. > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more. > >>>>> > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there > >>> is > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, > >>> but > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt. > >>>>> > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety > >> of > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project > >> that > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is > >> another > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt. > >>>>> > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits < > >> pierre.sm...@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. > >>> Looking > >>>>> at > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation > >>>>>> - no postings on the user ml since December 2015 > >>>>>> - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation > >>>>>> - No description (readme) in github > >>>>>> - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the > >>>>> project's > >>>>>> home page > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the > >>>> world > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for > >>>>>> retirement. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Pierre Smits > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com> > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services > >>>>>> > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré < > >>> j...@nanthrax.net > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi John > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the > >> table. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the > >> activity > >>>> and > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about > >>>> retirement > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" > >>>> project > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, > >>>> feature > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's > >>> not > >>>>> the > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases > >> in > >>> a > >>>>> very > >>>>>>> limited community. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>> JB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" < > >>>>> johndam...@apache.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics. But I think we as the IPMC we > >>> have > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what > >> to > >>> do > >>>>>>>> next. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is their > >>> 3rd > >>>>>>>> attempt > >>>>>>>> at monthly). > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of > >>>>>>>> activity > >>>>>>>> on the project happens. It doesn't sustain. > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real > >> contribution > >>>> in 6 > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk ) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to > >>>> force > >>>>> a > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that > >>>> there's > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going > >>>> forward. > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the > >> door, > >>>> but > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move > >>>> forward. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to > >>>>> regroup? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> John > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
