Thanks, Roger. I'll bear that in mind.
Bob Roger Hui wrote: >> Roger, I made remarks along those lines many moons ago, >> about the power of adverbs and conjunctions, >> so please don't feel you have to preach to me about such things. >> > > All the more surprising then that you would say what you said > about sigma and sum and AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray. > > I am humor challenged. I can not tell the difference. > If you can insert things like <dont_take_seriously> > </dont_take_seriously> that would help me a lot. > Otherwise I may so enclose the whole thing by mistake. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 14:30 > Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > To: General forum <[email protected]> > Cc: Geoff Streeter <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith <[email protected]>, > Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]> > > >> Roger, I made remarks along those lines many moons ago, >> about the power of adverbs and conjunctions, >> so please don't feel you have to preach to me about such things. >> This is from my APL93 paper, "The Role of APL and >> J in High-Performance Computation", but I'm relatively sure >> I have said such things much earlier than that: >> >> "A semantically rich language is of immense value because >> knowledge in one area benefits another -- learning ten verbs >> and twenty adverbs gives the potential for specifying 200 >> different actions. Similarly, a computer language with >> conjunctions and adverbs offers richness of expression >> to the programmer." >> >> What I am trying to point out is that,as you noted, >> there is no need to change J. However, >> if a front end, or skin, can improve the lot >> of those who are either unwilling to learn new >> notations, or who are more comfortable with a different >> presentation of it, why not make it easy for them to >> create an interface that pleases them? >> It might even attract new J users. >> >> As for the Babel (or Babylon, or perhaps Babble On) >> paragraph, there was some humor intended there. >> Please don't take it seriously. >> Bob >> >> Roger Hui wrote: >> >>> Fine. You are welcome to immerse yourself with character >>> design, and I am happy to stick with language design. >>> You did interject yourself into a discussion on introducing >>> special characters into J and what I responding to is that >>> interjection. >>> >>> >>> >>>> This way, mathematicians could use "sigma" (I can't >>>> find the glyph on my keyboard...) for +/, English >>>> language bigots could use "sum", and certain other >>>> types could use "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", >>>> depending on their respective whims. I recommend that this >>>> skinnability be dubbed "Babel". >>>> >>>> >>> Here's the thing. Even if sigma majuscule were a symbol >>> >> on >> >>> the keyboard, to introduce that is to detract from one of >>> the main tenets of J (and APL), namely adverbs (operators). >>> Once I understand what +/ does, I would have a pretty good >>> understanding of what */, times/, or/, and/, max/ etc. do. >>> But if what I know is sum or sigma or >>> AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray, how do I know >>> how to multiply the items of an array? How am I supposed >>> to know that */ is PI, or that +/ and */ are strongly related? >>> >>> Adverbs are very efficient. If you know m verb symbols >>> and n adverb symbols, you know how to do m*n things. >>> If you know m verb symbols and n "sum" or "sigma" like >>> symbols, you just know how to do m+n things. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> >>> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:12 >>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL >>> To: General forum <[email protected]> >>> Cc: 'Geoff Streeter' <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith >>> >> <[email protected]>, Alexander Skomorokhov >> <[email protected]>> >> >>> >>> >>>> Hi, Roger. >>>> >>>> It sounds like you're letting the tool (IE) drive design, rather >>>> than the other way around. A few comments: >>>> >>>> 1. Cut/paste: In Linux, you merely highlight the >>>> >> desired text, >> >>>> with a mouse click or swipe, >>>> >> then do >> >>>> the middle-button >>>> click to paste. No need for any >>>> >> typing >> >>>> (Ctrl-c). I admit that >>>> this is a small potatoes issue. >>>> >>>> 2. IE is on the way out, according to a few recent erag articles. >>>> So, perhaps all your problems with it >>>> >> will go >> >>>> away, when time >>>> gets full. >>>> >>>> 3. I was not proposing any changes to J in my message. >>>> What I was saying was that the >>>> >> problems of >> >>>> entering, displaying (and printing) unicode >>>> characters, including APL, >>>> are finally over. Well, at least in >>>> >> Linux...>> >> >>>> 4. What might fit in nicely is a user-defined "skin" for J, >>>> acting as a >>>> session >>>> manager in lieu of the J session >>>> >> manager, >> >>>> much as various media >>>> players allow a user to customize >>>> >> their >> >>>> player with software that >>>> presents the player's user interface >>>> >> in a >> >>>> different way. >>>> >>>> This would leave the existing J >>>> >> engine in its >> >>>> current form, yet let >>>> users >>>> write their scripts in any format >>>> >> they >> >>>> choose, and display the results >>>> in any format they desire. Yet, the >>>> >> formal >> >>>> interface to the engine >>>> would remain unchanged (I think), and >>>> >> J >> >>>> scripts could be exchanged >>>> as always in a uniform manner. >>>> >>>> This way, mathematicians could use >>>> >> "sigma" (I >> >>>> can't find the glyph >>>> on my >>>> keyboard...) for +/, >>>> >> English >> >>>> language bigots could use "sum", and >>>> certain other >>>> types could use >>>> "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", depending on >>>> their >>>> respective whims. I recommend >>>> >> that this >> >>>> skinnability be dubbed "Babel". >>>> >>>> Rockless Bob >>>> >>>> Roger Hui wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? >>>>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? >>>>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> So here I am in Windows, where the equivalents are: >>>>> iota; ctrl-i >>>>> omega; ctrl-w >>>>> transpose; ctrl-shift-6 >>>>> >>>>> Fine. So now I want to copy some text in my Dyalog >>>>> >>>>> >>>> session. >>>> >>>> >>>>> I highlight the text and my fingers, without any >>>>> >> intervention from >> >>>>> my brain, hit ctrl-c. Oops. (ctrl-c is the set >>>>> >>>>> >>>> intersection> symbol, for you non-APL-aficionados.) >>>> >>>> >>>>> The main point I want to make is that J has 7-bit >>>>> ASCII characters and you'd have to have rocks in >>>>> your head to introduce special characters into J. >>>>> The following quotes from >>>>> http://aplteam2.com/aplwiki/BrowserTest >>>>> are instructive: >>>>> >>>>> All versions of Internet Explorer get it wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Many browser under Windows are capable of >>>>> displaying a wide range of APL symbols. However, >>>>> at least some symbols are missed. Favorites are >>>>> ⌿⍀⍝⍎⍕⍪ and the symbols for NAND and NOR. >>>>> >>>>> I am not interested in discussions about character set >>>>> issues and how it's a solved problem, etc. Dyalog has >>>>> indeed done a magnificent job (miraculous, even) with >>>>> the APL characters. But: the bottom line is that J >>>>> does not have a character set problem and let's keep >>>>> it that way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> >>>>> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:19 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL >>>>> To: General forum <[email protected]>, Morten >>>>> >> Kromberg >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> <[email protected]>, 'Geoff Streeter' >>>> >> <[email protected]>, >> >>>> Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith >>>> <[email protected]>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'm finally fairly happy with APL text and LaTeX, vi, >>>>>> web browser, and APL windows now, thanks >>>>>> to the following: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Geoff Streeter (and probably others) at >>>>>> Dyalog, They have created a >>>>>> >> Unicode-based >> >>>>>> APL system including standard >>>>>> >> mods to >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> the XFree86 >>>> >>>> >>>>>> (Linux windowing) >>>>>> >> configuration that >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> let me enter >>>> >>>> >>>>>> APL characters directly into >>>>>> >> the APL >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> session,>> using keystrokes like >>>> >> these. >> >>>> If you don't >>>> >>>> >>>>>> like the >>>>>> keystrokes, you can customize >>>>>> >> them to >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> your >>>> >>>> >>>>>> own whim: >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? >>>>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? >>>>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? >>>>>> >>>>>> What I find entirely >>>>>> >> delightful about >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> this >>>> >>>> >>>>>> approach is that >>>>>> the keyboard changes also >>>>>> >> work >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> EXACTLY the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> same way in vi, >>>>>> web browsers, etc. I can >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> copy/cut/paste APL >>>> >>>> >>>>>> text across >>>>>> apps with no problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Adrian Smith, for his APL385 font. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Alexander Skomorokhov, who told me >>>>>> >> about >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> xelatex and >>>> >>>> >>>>>> its ability to crank >>>>>> >> out APL >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> with no fuss. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> The above red text was directly copy/pasted from a >>>>>> >> pdf file >> >>>>>> produced with xelatex, from this text, which I tinkered >>>>>> >> from slides >> >>>>>> for a talk I'm giving at NYU on March 24. The red text is what >>>>>> makes the APL happen: >>>>>> >>>>>> \documentclass[handout]{beamer} >>>>>> \usepackage{beamerthemesplit} >>>>>> >>>>>> \usepackage{fontspec} >>>>>> \setmainfont{Arial} >>>>>> \setmonofont{APL385} >>>>>> >>>>>> \title{Tacit Parallelism} >>>>>> \author{Robert Bernecky} >>>>>> \institute{Snake Island Research Inc} >>>>>> \date{\today} >>>>>> \usecolortheme{default} >>>>>> >>>>>> \begin{document} >>>>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: {\tt ?} >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: {\tt ?} >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: {\tt ?} >>>>>> \end{document} >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm using Linux, but Dyalog also has a BillWare(tm) >>>>>> version of their unicode system. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not totally happy with Adrian's font, as I don't think >>>>>> it has the balance (if that's the right word) and elegance of >>>>>> Joey Tuttle's APL fonts, and his font seems to pick >>>>>> typefaces more or less at random. E.g., the dollar sign in >>>>>> the following looks OK here, but in the pdf file, it is >>>>>> clearly out of place with the remainder of the text: >>>>>> >>>>>> x =. >>>>>> >> 2 3 $ 4 >> >>>>>> My thanks to all for making life much simpler. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> Don Watson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Raul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The non-ASCII characters were a bit of a mess. This was a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> first attempt at >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> something and I am not used to creating such script. I >>>>>>> >> hand >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> non-ASCII characters onto the printed page and scanned the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> result into a PDF >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> file. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J programs would still be transferable, because there is >>>>>>> >> no >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> change to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> storage format - the two ASCII characters are still >>>>>>> >> stored. >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> The change is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> only when those characters are output. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Raul Miller" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: "General forum" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:20 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Don Watson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://bcompanion.com/Compromisepdf.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there a reason you put this in a pdf ? I ask, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> because >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I recently >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> uninstalled adobe's reader because of a security flaw. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.adobe.com/support/security/advisories/apsa09-01.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am installing the new version of adobe now, but if you needed >>>>>>> to use pdf because regular text was inadequate for your >>>>>>> >> proposal,>>>>> I think that says something about the proposal >> itself -- it would >> >>>>>>> mean -- for example -- that you are proposing that J >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> programs should >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> not be transmittable using regular email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, I have downloaded the proposal now. The hard >>>>>>> >> part, >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> obviously,> is the characters themselves. >>>>>> >> (Personally, >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> I >>>> >>>> >>>>>> could read the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> J code but had problems understanding the "compromise >>>>>>> equivalent verb". I am not sure if my problems were >>>>>>> >> because>>>>> of the ways the intended characters were rendered >> or whether >> >>>>>>> my problems in understanding were because I was >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> expected to >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> understand some character(s) which I did not understand.) >>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
