Crikey, I grossly underestimated how many messages are involved in a two message exchange with ETC Group. Jim, you are nothing if not exhausting. You have taken a whole page of your website to provide your account of our exchange. I have no website so I will share my perspective here in order to help set the record straight.
Folks, Jim and I agreed to a two message exchange. When I sent in my final message Jim got upset. He demanded that three parts of it be removed and that ETC get an extra go (in the form of a long disclaimer at the bottom of the piece). Jim threatened that ETC would pull its support for publication of the forum if these demands were not met. I think that the exchange highlights some of the weaknesses of ETC’s approach to climate change, and so to allow it to be published I agreed to two of the three edits that ETC demanded. I also agreed to let them have a disclaimer at the bottom of the piece that linked to their web page. Without these concessions the forum would not have been published and their views not laid open to scrutiny. I address the three points that ETC wanted removed here. *Firstly *ETC demanded that I remove the direct statement that they oppose research into geoengineering. I wrote this because the evidence indicates clearly that ETC opposes all research on geoengineering, even indoors. ETC doesn’t usually campaign for a ban on all geoengineering research. But they did do this when they felt their goal might actually be in sight. This happened most evidently at the CBD COP in 2010, where their campaigning document reads: “the 10th Conference of the Parties (COP 10) should adopt a moratorium on all geoengineering activities”. Check it here <http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org/2010/10/etc-group-briefing-for-cbd-cop-10-in-nagoya-geoengineering/> . I attended the COP 10 negotiations in Nagoya and ETC campaigned hard (but unsuccessfully) to keep the ‘all geoengineering activities’ language . Neth Daño from ETC then reiterated <http://www.etcgroup.org/content/world%E2%80%99s-largest-geoengineering-deployment-coast-canada%E2%80%99s-british-columbia>the same goal two years later. Similarly, ETC tried to prevent the IPCC from even discussing geoengineering here. <http://www.etcgroup.org/content/open-letter-ipcc-geoengineering> ETC would not have started with a position that opposed 'all geoengineering activities', and would not have campaigned on it, and then defended it hard at COP 10, if what they really only cared about was outdoors research. *Secondly *ETC were upset that I called them out on whether farming can solve climate change. Sorry Jim, but I do think that your proposal to solve global warming by returning to peasant agriculture is at best unfeasible and at worst reckless. Farming makes up less than 25% of global greenhouse gas emissions. And how exactly would “abolishing industrial agriculture” occur? By a diktat, backed by threat of force? Is farming important? Of course. Exploring the potential for changing farming practices is crucial and could help address multiple goals: hunger, societal resilience, GHG mitigation, CDR (!), land use issues, chemical inputs and implications. But, as I said in the exchange, it’s misguided to think agricultural change can solve climate change, and irresponsible to repeatedly go around telling people that it will. *Thirdly *ETC Group were upset that I mentioned their funders. This is remarkable considering that calling out the funders of activities they don’t like is one of ETC’s standard practices. I had a little look this morning and stopped after I’d found over ten examples in under ten minutes: Pages 12, 13, 26, 27, 34, 36, 38 of the 'Geopiracy' <http://www.etcgroup.org/sites/www.etcgroup.org/files/publication/pdf_file/ETC_geopiracy_4web.pdf> report, and here <http://www.etcgroup.org/content/turn-around-geo-engineering-ship-protect-moratorium>, here <http://www.etcgroup.org/fr/node/719>and here. <http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org/2011/12/guardian-story-on-solar-radiation-management-govt-initiative-report> <http://www.etcgroup.org/sites/www.etcgroup.org/files/publication/pdf_file/ETC_geopiracy_4web.pdf> This is why, despite pressure from ETC, I refused to budge from naming the Lillian Goldman Charitable Trust, CS Fund, Swedbio (a project of the Stockholm Resilience Centre) and Oxfam-Novib. If I’d had a greater word limit it would also have allowed me to mention the Heinrich Boell Foundation, the New Venture Fund (IFAAES), and the HKH Foundation. All this info is just taken from the ETC website <http://www.etcgroup.org/content/our-funders-who-do-we-get-funds>. I’m sure these are all well-meaning foundations who care deeply about people and the planet, but I do wonder if they’re aware of the enormous gamble that ETC Group takes with the lives of the world’s most vulnerable people by seeking to block the development of geoengineering before we’ve properly understood it characteristics, risks and benefits. And *finally *this all leads me to the main question that I asked in my first message and Jim ignored in his second message, and then sidestepped in the extra message he granted himself on the ETC website: *Jim, what’s your plan for dealing with the climate risks that can’t be addressed by adaptation and mitigation? What if we don’t mitigate enough? Or adapt enough? Or if climate sensitivity to CO2 is worse than we thought? And what if your plans don't work?* Andy On Thursday, December 11, 2014 9:29:45 PM UTC+1, JimETC wrote: > > Dear all, > > Further to this exchange and the uncivil way in which Mr Parker chose to > conclude it , ETC posted a clarifying blog post here: > > > http://www.etcgroup.org/content/uncivil-debate-responding-andy-parker-iass-potsdam > > best > > Jim Thomas > ETC Group. > > On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Simon Nicholson wrote: > > Dear all -- > > The Washington Geoengineering Consortium posted, yesterday, an interesting > exchange between Andy Parker (IASS-Potsdam) and Jim Thomas (ETC Group). > Here's the link: > http://dcgeoconsortium.org/2014/12/10/forum-exchange-is-climate-engineering-worthy-of-consideration/ > > Full text copied below: > > > Forum Exchange: Is Climate Engineering Worthy of Consideration? > > The Washington Geoengineering Consortium is pleased to present the first > in a new series of forums on climate engineering. This new series is > designed to produce open and frank exchange between people with divergent > viewpoints on critical issues. > > We have invited Jim Thomas <http://www.etcgroup.org/users/jim-thomas> of > the ETC Group and Andy Parker > <http://www.iass-potsdam.de/en/people/andrew-parker> of the Institute for > Advanced Sustainability Studies in Potsdam, Germany to open this new forum > series. > > The question: *is climate engineering worthy of consideration?* > > The following exchange is prompted by an article on climate engineering > <http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/science/earth/climate-tools-seek-to-bend-natures-path.html?_r=0> > that > appeared on the front page of the print edition of the New York Times on > November 10, 2014. (See the WGC’s prior forum, inviting responses to the > New York Times article, here > <http://dcgeoconsortium.org/2014/11/13/where-does-the-climate-geoengineering-conversation-go-from-here/>). > > Jim and Andy were both interviewed for the article. Here are the quotes > attributed to each of them, pulled directly from the New York Times article: > > *“There’s so much potential here for taking energy away from real > responses to climate change,” said Jim Thomas of the ETC Group, a research > organization that opposes geoengineering because of its potential impact on > poor countries. As for experimentation to test some of the ideas, he said, > “it shouldn’t happen.”* > > *“There may come to be a choice between geoengineering and suffering,” > said Andy Parker of the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies in > Potsdam, Germany. “And how we make that choice is crucial.”* > > We asked Jim and Andy to engage in a back and forth dialogue, expanding on > the positions attributed to them in the article and responding to the > positions they attribute to one another. The dialogue proceeded through two > rounds of comment and response, with Jim providing the opening statement. > > We should note that the WGC does not formally endorse nor support any > position expressed in the exchange below. Rather, our aim here, as always, > is to provide a space for direct and productive dialogue. > > Here, then, is the back and forth between Jim and Andy: > ------------------------------ > > > *Dear Andy,* > > I am uncomfortable with your rhetorical posture that, “it’s geoengineering > or it's suffering, folks.” This stark choice may appear “tough” and > “pragmatic” but it’s a false choice that strips away all context, history, > imagination and agency. Don’t feel singled out—this rhetorical device is > commonly employed by enthusiasts for many controversial technologies: > “Embrace GMO’s or the third world will starve;” “Opponents of DDT are > responsible for malaria;” etc. > > As a Brit of a certain generation such false choices always put me in mind > of Margaret Thatcher’s dictum of TINA (There is No Alternative). She was > talking about the unfettered free market and of course she was wrong. So > too for addressing climate change: There ARE plenty of alternatives to > geoengineering the planet. It’s just that powerful corporate lobbies > strongly prefer that politicians do not consider them—indeed find “hacking > the planet” more palatable than approaches that challenge their own power. > > Here’s one alternative: abolishing industrial agriculture and returning > land to peasant producers. By any assessment industrial agriculture is a > major contributor of greenhouse gases. It degrades soils, wastes energy, > clears forests, belches nitrous oxide and methane, hogs 70% of the land and > only feeds 30% percent of the global population in doing so. By contrast > agro-ecological peasant farming systems feed the remaining 70% on only a > third of available land, enriching soil fertility and with little > emissions. Want a stark choice? It should be a no-brainer that climate > policy would lead with constraining industrial agriculture while switching > to proven farming systems that both feed people and cool the planet. That’s > not an option of ‘suffering’. It’s an intelligent option of hope and > resilience, returning agency and rights to billions in strong communities. > > Ironically moves towards geoengineering may close down agroecological > options: CDR [Carbon Dioxide Removal] approaches such as BECCS [Bio-Energy > with Carbon Capture and Sequestration] would grab even more peasant lands > to grow biomass feedstocks (causing suffering); sulfate aerosols may > disrupt the very tropical climates that peasant farmers rely on (causing > suffering?); industrializing the ocean as an enhanced CO2 sink could > threaten coastal livelihoods (again, suffering?). > > It’s geoengineering that shuts down the future and renders it grimly > choice-less. > > Best, Jim > ------------------------------ > > > *Dear Jim,* > > Thanks for your message. I think our disagreement is about the scale of > the threat of climate change, and the options for dealing with it. I’m > going to lay out the thinking behind my quote and you can tell me where > I’ve gone wrong. > > We must aggressively cut our greenhouse gas emissions and hugely increase > investment in adaptation. But no matter how much mitigation we do we’re > committed to decades of warming – of floods, storms, desertification, > species loss and drought – thanks to past emissions and inertia in the > climate system. Adaptation will help, but it can’t deal with everything > (such as ecosystem loss). > > So even with perfect mitigation and perfect adaptation there will still be > climate impacts, which will hit vulnerable people and species hardest, and > can either be dealt with by suffering or geoengineering. And we’re a > million miles from perfect mitigation or perfect adaptation. In fact we’re > currently following the worst emissions pathway from the IPCC. > > To be unambiguously clear—this doesn’t mean that we should do > geoengineering. The cure might be worse than the disease. But we must > research and understand all our options. Sticking your head in the sand > will not make the unpleasant realities of climate change go away. > > How we make choices over geoengineering is going to be crucial. How can we > ensure research is transparent and safe? How do we stop it distracting > from emissions cuts? How can we ensure the participation of the world’s > most vulnerable people? I encourage ETC to join the conversation > constructively rather than sniping from the sidelines, misrepresenting the > science and attacking climate scientists – leave that to the right-wing > think tanks. > > I agree that addressing the impacts of farming is very important, but this > is a form of mitigation. It’s misguided to think this can solve climate > change, and irresponsible to go around telling people that it will. > > Some simple questions then. What’s your plan for dealing with the risks > that can’t be addressed by adaptation and mitigation? What if we don’t > mitigate enough? Or adapt enough? Or if climate sensitivity to CO2 is > worse than we thought? > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > > *Dear Andy,* > > Thanks and no, I don’t think we disagree about the scale of the threat of > climate change. > > I think we have a disagreement about technofixes: > > To my mind it’s wrong to think that climate change is the sort of > “problem” that can ever be “solved” by technical solutions however big and > clever they sound. The “climate problem” is not just a wiring error in our > energy system or a maths puzzle about carbon in the air; it’s more complex > than that. It’s about billions of people living together in a closed, > coupled system and is deeply entangled in social, political and economic > root causes. Resolving the threat of climate change requires changing > political, social and economic relations. Chasing technofixes is at best a > distraction and at worst a ploy. The worse our climate situation gets the > less plausible the existence of a silver bullet > > Maybe a disagreement about which crises to fix: > > I don’t believe we can partition off the climate crisis and try to “fix” > it in isolation from the wider crises unfolding in our society (inequality, > hunger, extinction). Addressing climate in the context of these favors > fundamental societal interventions (shifting economic goals, shutting down > industries and rolling back monoculture), and not just unidimensional > responses labeled “mitigation,” “adaptation,” etc. It means attacking and > resolving root causes. That’s the dead opposite of a geoengineer’s “end of > the pipe” mindset. > > And a disagreement over boundaries: > > Our head isn’t in the sand: ETC Group has been encouraging global > discussion about geoengineering for nearly a decade. But yes, we do draw a > line in that sand: we oppose developing geoengineering technology in the > real world. To cross that line (with field trials, hardware tests) is to > unnecessarily usher geoengineering into being before society has agreed to > that final and terrible trajectory, before meaningful, radical approaches > have even been tried. > > And we probably disagree about the word “we”: > > You say, “How we make choices over geoengineering is going to be crucial.” > I can only agree if the “we” is assured to be a larger, global, inclusive > “we”—not some elite “geoclique” itching to uncork the geoengineering genie > on behalf of an unwitting humanity. > > Best, Jim > ------------------------------ > > > *Dear Jim,* > > Thanks for your message. You made no attempt to answer my questions and > I’m left wondering if ETC will ever engage seriously with global warming. > > Of course it’s crucial that we address inequality, hunger, and species > loss. But let’s not confuse important things – none of these will stop > Earth from warming up. Your main proposal – forcing humanity to return to > peasant agriculture – is at best unrealistic and at worst reckless. > > As I think you know, solar geoengineering is the only currently known > method for quickly stopping the planet from warming. The evidence > indicates that it could greatly reduce climate risk (both temperature and > rainfall changes) while we get CO2 concentrations under control. To my > mind this at least means we should research it. I’ve spent my whole > professional life working on climate change and would prefer it if we could > deal with global warming by mitigation alone. But we have got ourselves > into a hole so deep that – sadly – we cannot afford to ignore > geoengineering. > > No one I know who works on geoengineering is saying that it’s a solution > to climate change or an alternative to mitigation and social change. Why do > you make out that it’s an either/or choice? By pushing this false dichotomy > you’re giving great assistance to those who want to frame geoengineering as > a substitute for carbon cuts. > > And it seems hypocritical that you claim to be “encouraging global > discussion about geoengineering” when ETC campaigned hard for a ban on “all > geoengineering activities” at the UN. How can we have an informed global > discussion if research doesn’t proceed? Are you, in all seriousness, > calling for a global discussion that is deliberately ill-informed? > > By seeking to block the development of something that might greatly reduce > suffering you are taking an enormous gamble with the lives of the world’s > poorest people, apparently just to further your own ideology. Is ETC Group > really comfortable with this? What about ETC’s funders at the Lillian > Goldman Charitable Trust, CS Fund, Swedbio and Oxfam-Novib? I suggest that > you think carefully about your priorities. Are you so certain that all > global social systems will be remade in line with your particular vision > that everyone can ignore a potential means to protect vulnerable people and > fragile ecosystems? What if you’re wrong? > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > [A note from the WGC] > > At the conclusion of the exchange, Jim Thomas requested that the following > message be conveyed to readers of the forum: > > *ETC Group disputes the claim that they oppose all geoengineering > research. See ETC’s website to learn more about the group’s > position: www.etcgroup.org/issues/climate-geoengineering > <http://www.etcgroup.org/issues/climate-geoengineering>* > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > Jim Thomas > ETC Group (Montreal) > [email protected] <javascript:> > +1 514 2739994 > > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 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