Justin Deoliveira wrote:
Hi Paulo,
I agree. These are core pieces of any enterprise infrastructure, we
have to question the wisdom of "rolling our own". That being said,
many "enterprise" quality solutions just dont cut it and cannot scale
to the degree that is needed for GIS applications. I am sure jody will
have something to add here :).
Not really, I know of a few people in the commercial space looking at
extending WFS to go for the full strong transaction support (branch,
merge, checkpoint). The low level transaction support we got at the
DataStore level is not effected which ever way you go (it is glue code
that you can back onto JDBC connections, Enterprise stuff from Spring or
whatever you have around). Aside: I made sure to factor out the
LockingManger from the DataStore API so you guys can experiment as
opportunity permits.
You guys will have to fix the geotools factory system to be aware of
containers - but you are already moving to a container based system so
you should have that flexability already covered.
Oh wait Justin said that, I think you got what you need to know Justin.
Just get on trunk so we can cause some damage.
Jody
However this is easier said then done. Most of the objects that do
data access and transactions live in Geotools. Various factories and
datastores are not currently written using the IoC paradigm. Which
makes having the container supply certain dependencies hard.
As an example, the postgis / jdbc datastore factory creates its own
ConnectionPool. Wheras certain application servers / containers have
their own implementation of ConnectionPool, and if you want to use the
"special facilities" you have to use it.
However, the calls for this kind of architecture in geotools are
starting to be made. And since Spring and JBoss Micro follow the
golden rule of allowing all your business objects to be simple POJO's,
it shouldn't be too hard to transition the necessary classes over to IoC.
Justin
P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente wrote:
I looked at the Spring docs to refresh my memories,
and saw it also has a data and transaction abstraction layer.
Maybe it can be used to replace the current GeoServer's transaction
system???
Just a thought, I didn't looked into it in depth.
Maybe we could take advantage of the various Spring
functionalities beyound the simple IoC container...
This would be a definitive plus towards its adoption,
but it would make it very pervasive inside both
GeoServer and GeoTools. Maybe too much pervasive...
Bye
Paolo Rizzi
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Justin Deoliveira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2005 19.33
A: "P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente"
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oggetto: Re: R: R: R: [Geoserver-devel] R: Geoserver Enterprise
Hmm, I must admit, JBoss looks promising, I think this warrants an
experiment of my own.
I think the nice thing is that both Spring and JBoss are IoC
containers that let us write POJO's. This is a simple construct but
it allows us to write container independent code. Which is huge,
because if we want to jump ship at any time, theoretically most of
our objects should work the same in a different container.
Another note, both frameworks boast to be lightweight enough to
embedd in any environment. This mean we may be able to possibly use
both in a single application.
Some more comments inline.
P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente wrote:
So it seems we two are quite aligned, I too like Spring and JBoss!!!
I did many test with Spring a few months ago, and almost
decided to use it,
but then abandoned it in favor of JBoss, because we already
decided to use
it
as our application server, so there was no point in using
yet another
library (Spring).
From what I can tell, the main reason for chosing one over the other
at this time is political.
From what I've seen so far I can tell that the IoC
container of Spring is
much more poweful and developed, but JBoss' Microcontainer
will soon reach
it.
Aspect programming is a great thing. I did some tests
months ago with both
the Spring aspect framework and JBossAOP. They follow different
philosophies,
but I found JBossAOP to be much more powerful.
I have looked at SpringAOP so I cant comment, but I am intrigued and
intend to look at JBossAOP.
JBoss strength is the integration with all other services
(if you need them,
but you're not obliged to), and in particular it's powerful
Class Loading
system.
So Spring is more "smart", but JBoss has a much larger "breadth",
though it's a bit difficult to grasp at first. Also one may have the
idea that JBoss technologies works only inside the
application server,
but this is not the case, in fact most of them, work
equally well outside.
Take a look at this to have an idea of what they're developing the
Microcontainer for:
http://jboss.org/jbossBlog/blog/bburke/2005/09/29/JBoss_Microc
ontainer_Embed
dable_JBoss.txt
Anyway I'm not pushing JBoss, I just want to be sure that
each option
is taken into account. I like Spring very much, so I'd be
happy if it
would be chosen. It just seems to be less "enterprise" than JBoss...
I dont really like the name Geoserver "Enterprise". The term
"Enterprise" brings along a lot of preconceptions with it that dont
apply. For instance Enterprise in the java world means that you are
using J2EE, and you dont have to with Spring or JBoss Micro.
Furthermore, our conversations about the architecture seem to be
shaping geoserver into a much smaller core, with a wealth of
services and utilities "plugged into it". Enterprise software is
notorious for being very monolithic.
All that being said I am not a marketing consultant so who knows, I
would like to bring the name out for public debate as well.
Bye
Paolo Rizzi
P.S: Can you put up a polling form on the Wiki, or
something like that???
Because EMail tends to go missing, after a while...
This is a great idea, I am going to look into this.
Justin
Spring)
I must say I am leaning pretty heavily toward Spring, for a
couple of
reasons:
1) It is fully featured web application framework
2) WebMVC is a nice substitute for struts
3) It is integratable with pretty much of the other web
technologies out there, including struts
4) I have found aspects to be a very nice way of organizing code
However my number one reason for liking Spring is the popularity
it is gaining. For instance, this year at OOPSLA Spring received
much attention.
JBoss Microcontainer)
I eagerly await the full evaluation, I have done some research,
here are my thoughts.
From what I can tell JBoss MicroContainer offers everything that
Spring does. However it still seems like JBoss Microcontainer is
still the new guy on the scene and most people are still using
spring.
This is an article comparing the two:
http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t49723.html
Here is an interesting post that referes to JBoss licencing:
http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/m91945483.html
So all in all I would have to say that my choice at this moment is
definitly Spring.
Any one else who has an opinion please chime in.
-Justin
P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente wrote:
I looked at:
http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOS/GeoServer+2.0+Technology
and saw you updated it with more detailed information, very
good work!!!
I'm experimenting a bit with JBoss Microcontainer and I
hope to be able
to add my experiments' results to the page soon.
I think we should start a sort of opinion poll.
Obviously you are free to decide as you like, but I think that
any "Humble and Biased" opinion, can be useful anyway.
So, here follows mine (please imagine an implicit "I think..."
before each affirmation).
Bye
Paolo Rizzi
******************************************************************
.) OSGi
It's surely powerful, but not easily "embeddable".
It tends to want having things done in its own manner
and it may conflict with other container (J2EE in particular).
--- I'd not use it. ---
.) Geronimo / GBeans
Light, flexible and embeddable enough, but it has nothing more
than JBoss / Microcontainer has, and it's not enough mature.
--- I'd not use it. ---
.) Spring
Very light, flexible and embeddable. It's designed to integrate,
not to conflict, with other containers and technology.
It optionally offers more than the plain container (MVC,
AOP, etc.).
It's quite mature and supported, but maybe there're not many people
"behind" it, apart from its creator.
--- I'd use it. ---
.) JBoss / Microcontainer Very light and flexible. The new
Microcontainer is embeddable
and it's designed to integrate, not to conflict, with other
containers.
JBoss optionally offers a lot more than the plain container
(MVC, AOP,
etc.).
It's very mature and supported, and there's a strong
support "behind" it.
--- I'd use it. ---
Licenses details remains to be looked for (but I'm no
expert in this).
In the end I'd use JBoss / Microcontainer, because that's
what I've used
till now (JBoss, not the Microcontainer).
If for any reason this is judged not to be usable, I'd use Spring.
I see no reason to use Geronimo / GBeans instead of JBoss /
Microcontainer.
I'd not use OSGi anyway.
******************************************************************
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Justin Deoliveira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: lunedì 24 ottobre 2005 17.04
A: "P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente"
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; Gabriel Roldán; "L.Percich
Ag.Mobilità
Ambiente"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oggetto: Re: R: [Geoserver-devel] R: Geoserver Enterprise
Hi Paolo,
I am glad you are interested in this topic. A technology
has not yet
been decided on, still in the evaluation stage. OSGi is just the
first one that I have had time to document. Next I plan to
evaluate Geronimo.
Please feel free to add JBoss to the list of candidates. It you
have the time I would love if you could write some docs about
why you think its a good way to go.
The list of technologies on the page is by no means complete so
please add anything else you think should be there.
-Justin
P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente wrote:
Da: Justin Deoliveira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: venerdì 30 settembre 2005 19.20
We are in the process of putting up some wiki space
dedicated to the
design. It would be nice to start refining some of the great
discussions that have been going on with OpenSDI and some of
things you
guys have
been doing over the last little while into a architecure and
high level design.
Justin
Sorry for disappearing in the last weeks, but I've been taken
away with exporting data to remote Oracle instances...!!!
I looked in the "RnD" Wiki space of GeoServer and saw the:
http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOS/GeoServer+2.0+Technology
page, that seems the most recently updated.
The only technology actually analized in depth is OSGi,
does it means you already choose it, or simply is it the
first one
you addressed???
I'd like to add JBoss as a suitable technology, and also a couple
of other considerations. May I edit the page???
I'm very interested in the proceeding of this and expecially in
Dave's sentence:
"...ps. from the last meeting, it appears the
"data/catalog" portion of the framework will be somewhat
like an expanded
"DataEngine" (from the IRC meeting)...".
I found no reference to this in the Wiki though... Where
can I find it???
Bye
Paolo Rizzi
P.Rizzi Ag.Mobilità Ambiente wrote:
I read the transcript from yesterday's IRC meeting. Sorry
we couldnt
attend.
I'm sorry, because we probably didn't advertised the IRC
enough...
For the last 2 weeks, I have been in Victoria talking with
the two new
TOPP employees (Brent Owens and Justin Deoliveira).
We have been discussing a large number of topics, but one
of the major
discussions has been on the Geoserver Enterprise Edition.
This is basically a new plug-in and extension-point based
system for
doing Geo-based web application (including things like WFS
and WMS and
WCS). And "customizing" existing applications. For
example, the SIS
stuff "plugging in" to WFS, and geo-wiki things. The new
Enterprise
edition will take geoserver from an application to a
platform for
developing and customizing web-based geo-applications.
We have discussed how we would provide services for most of
what's been
talked about on the mailing list and the few IRC
meetings. I think
you're going to be very excited about it. We are going to
write up our
ideas for next week and hope to get some feedback from you.
Great!!! I'll wait to see what you came up with with much
interest!!!
dave
Bye Paolo
ps. from the last meeting, it appears the "data/catalog"
portion of the
framework will be somewhat like an expanded "DataEngine"
(from the IRC
meeting).
I feel this is fundamental, so I'm happy to know we're
quite tuned on it!!!
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