I would like more options rather than less; Derby has been rolled into 
the standard Java 6 install so it may be applicable to more users.  I 
would *love* to tell applet developers to use Derby (enabling us to 
retire the epsg-wkt plugin).

Martin are you still up for a break out IRC session scheduled for this 
week? It looks like Thursday would be bet for me. One thing I would like 
to revisit with you is putting some sanity checks on the epsg modules so 
we can have more of them on the classpath with out conflict. Failing 
that I would like to limit the binrary download to *epsg-hsql* (not 
understanding that the epsg modules can conflict is a common user mistake).

I would like to ensure that geotools can work out of the box (where 
people dump all the jars into their IDE and start hacking).

Cheers,
Jody
Jody

Martin Desruisseaux wrote:
> Andrea Aime a écrit :
>   
>> Martin, do you think there is a chance to have a text based authority
>> providing the same information amount as the database? Maybe using a non
>> standard, extended WKT?
>>     
>
> We could imagine a WKT extension, but I'm not sure if we can put the same 
> amount
> of information in it. We would have a lot of new objects to define 
> (TemporalCRS,
> CoordinateOperation, OperationMethod, etc.) or existing object to extend 
> (Datum,
> CoordinateSystemAxis, etc.).
>
> In WKT, the notion of CoordinateSystem is merged with 
> CoordinateReferenceSystem
> because the former didn't existed in pre-ISO 19111 OGC specification (namely 
> OGC
> 01-009). One consequence is that there is no way to distinguish a 
> GeocentricCRS
> using a CartesianCS from a GeocentricCRS using a SphericalCS. Extending the 
> WKT
> format may not be enough; we may need to modify the existing format as well.
>
> I believe that extending the WKT format to provide the same level of 
> information
> than the EPSG database would be a lot of work. Adding some properties like 
> "area
> of interest", or "scope" would be relatively easy, but the EPSG database is 
> more
> than just a few additional properties. Adding CoordinateOperation chains would
> be a more complicated task for example.
>
> If we decide to put this amount of work in a textual representation of CRS, I
> believe that the energy would be better invested in a XML parser for CRS. The
> GML representation of CRS can contains much more than WKT.
>
>
>
>   
>> Just for the record, I have here, sitting on my disk, a clone of
>> epsg-hsql using H2. A build with standard unit tests take the same time
>> as HSQL, one with extensive tests is 50% faster that HSQL.
>>     
>
> HSQL was choosen in part because it was the first one I succeed to setup and 
> get
> running, and partially because it is shipped with OpenOffice. It is probably 
> not
> the best choice. I think that Chris Holmes is looking toward H2 for Geoserver,
> so we should probably uses the same database engine for EPSG.
>
>
>   
>> But overall the same issues remain, the authority is very slow and bulky
>> if you need just a few of the SRS compared to a stripped down WKT file.
>>     
>
> Maybe it is slow because of H2 or HSQL database startup time (including
> classloading)? If so, maybe the impact would be lower if H2 is used anyway by
> Geoserver for other purpose, since the database engine would be up and 
> running?
>
> If it still slower, then a possible approach would be to create the stripped
> down WKT file on the fly. An (yet another) authority factory decorator could
> write the most recently used CRS in a property file. In the current state of
> affairs, we get user request for adding missing CRS in the property files, so
> the property file is not stripped down anymore (if we don't put the full EPSG
> content, we will always miss a CRS useful to someone). Using it as a cache
> generated on the fly would fit better the user's needs.
>
> A variant of the above is to serizalize the CRS on the fly rather than 
> writting
> them in CRS form. Serializing CRS is easy and should preserve all 
> informations,
> at the opposite of WKT formatting.
>
> In any case, I would be nice to commit your H2 variant to Geotools SVN (trunk)
> if you agree :).
>
>
>   
>> There is also another issue that I'm trying to discuss with the H2
>> author here:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/h2-database/browse_frm/thread/ef14b5a50a3d8961
>>     
>
> An other solution would be to select Derby as a replacement of HSQL, instead 
> of
> H2. If I'm understanding right, Derby would avoid completly the need to write
> into a temporary directory:
>
> http://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.3/devguide/cdevdvlp24155.html
>
> I have seen contradictory statements about Derby performances. Some said that
> Derby is slower, some said that it is faster in some situations. It seems to
> depend on our application. The debate is quite similar to the one opposing
> PostgreSQL to MySQL. Some said that MySQL is faster, but PostgreSQL guys point
> out that MySQL performs lockings on a table-basis while PostgreSQL performs
> lockings on a row-basis, and consequently performs better in highly concurrent
> environments. I have see the same arguments in the H2 vs Derby debate (H2 is
> faster, but locks whole tables while Derby performs lockings on a row-basis).
>
>       Martin
>
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