Hi All, It would be nice to say that we had chance to do a full cost, benefit analysis for moving over to open source, but we weren't really given that much notice about the change in license. In a way we don't have a choice about doing this, so either we find products that work for us or we change our workflow to make them work!
Luckily because we had been broadly considering a move to open source software across the board, we had taken on computing staff who were familiar with open source products in general, and some intimately familiar with particular gis packages. Support and maintenance should not be too much of a problem- and in fact we are now able to offer support and advice for other companies/individuals also considering this transition, as well as providing the portable GIS package, that gives them the chance to try out some of the alternatives without needing to install them. In terms of what we need the software to do- we do the full suite of tasks from basic processing of data through to full spatial and 3D analysis, with a wide range of data formats. As a quick point to Percy- the sextante plugin for GvSIG contains many more features in those areas than the corresponding ArcGIS extensions, and of course if you use QGIS you get the grass plugin. So, off the top of my head: Spatial and tabular joins- check (gvsig), cad integration for survey plans- check (gvsig), 3D and spatial analysis- check (both qgis and gvsig with grass and sextante plugins respectively), postgis integration - check (both). As I mentioned- the main area that we find all the open source products lacking slightly is in the generation of finely controlled (ie where the end user can easily control the appearance of every element) illustrations. In the past, with ArcGIS, the end-user could generate their own illustrations without needing the support of a dedicated graphics person, and we don't really want to go down a route where that changes. This is the only real area where we're at all concerned about the transition so we're working on ways to address this. In terms of transitioning existing projects from ArcGIS to open source- we have found a plugin that converts mxds to other formats (mapserver, arcinfo etc) and as it's all xml based we are looking at extending it to work with gvsig and qgis projects too. In this way we hope to move people over without the need for them to completely rebuild their work in the new packages. Hope this all helps, and if you need any further information then do ask Jo ----------------------------------------------------- Joanne Cook Information Systems Coordinator Oxford Archaeology (North) 01524 880212 http://thehumanjourney.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:10:38 +1000 From: Cameron Shorter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Joanne, I'm very excited to hear about your experience and am keen to hear more. My immediate need is to put together a strong argument by mid next week for a techie to present to upper management. Longer term, I'd love to see a case study we can add to http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies . I expect your case study will be widely read as this will be a common issue organisations face now that ESRI have stopped support for Arc View 3.1. So anything you can quickly flick me would be great. Do you have a user needs assessment? A feature by feature comparison? Or anything similar along those lines. A cost, benefit analysis? How are you planning to address maintenance and support of the Open Source products? Longer term, compiling into a case study would be good. I'm happy to review and provide feedback if that helps. Joanne Cook wrote: > Hi Cameron, > > We (Oxford Archaeology) are going through exactly that process at the moment, > although we are replacing arcgis 9.2 rather than arcview. We are doing this > primarily because changes in the licensing terms meant that we were no longer > eligible for the educational discount, but it's part of a longer term move > towards open source. We have spent some time investigating alternatives, and > have a few contenders, and I'm sure we would be happy to advise, or provide a > case study on this. > > Basically we are looking at gvsig and qgis as the main options- gvsig because > it can use cad data, and qgis because we like the grass integration and it's > slightly more user-friendly for english speakers (the translated version of > gvsig still has some spanish bits in it). With slight changes to our > work-flows, we are finding that these two packages will do almost everything > we need a gis to do, with the exception of producing high-quality > illustrations. To achieve this we are currently looking at export to svg or > postscript for final editing in inkscape, but that's a work in progress. > > Contact me (off-list or on) if you would like some more information on this > transition. > > All the best > > Jo > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Joanne Cook > Information Systems Coordinator > Oxford Archaeology (North) > 01524 880212 > http://thehumanjourney.net > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:28:57 +1000 > From: Cameron Shorter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement > To: Miguel Montesinos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Some Australian organisations are considering replacing their ArcView > 3.1 desktops with an Open Source alternative. > > Is anyone aware of others who have gone through this process? > If so, who are they? > Do they have a case study? > I'm particularly interested to see a review of ArcView features used by > oganisation users, and compared against Open Source to see if the Open > Source covered their requirements. > > I'm aware of this good review of Open Source Desktop clients at: > http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/ > > -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:15:46 -0700 From: percy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed I think the key here is to discuss the Extensions to Arcview and Arcmap. Much of the base functionality can be covered by these FOSS desktop clients like gvSIG and QGIS and UDIG, but extensions like Spatial analyst and 3D analyst, for some of us, is where it becomes difficult to our work done using only FOSS. Plus simple stuff like spatial joins. :-) I teach a class called GIS for the Natural Sciences every year, and because of industry standards and educational discounts the primary platform is ESRI. I always mention FOSS alternatives though. This year, after I gave out the first assignment, I decided to try to do it myself using only FOSS software. Fired up QGIS, no spatial join. The only way to move forward was to fire up PostGIS, command line. That was the end of the experiment in terms of trying to rewrite the assignment using opensource desktop gis. :-( Percy Cameron Shorter wrote: > Joanne, > I'm very excited to hear about your experience and am keen to hear more. > My immediate need is to put together a strong argument by mid next week > for a techie to present to upper management. > > Longer term, I'd love to see a case study we can add to > http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies . I expect your case study will > be widely read as this will be a common issue organisations face now > that ESRI have stopped support for Arc View 3.1. > > So anything you can quickly flick me would be great. Do you have a user > needs assessment? A feature by feature comparison? Or anything similar > along those lines. A cost, benefit analysis? > > How are you planning to address maintenance and support of the Open > Source products? > > Longer term, compiling into a case study would be good. I'm happy to > review and provide feedback if that helps. > > Joanne Cook wrote: >> Hi Cameron, >> >> We (Oxford Archaeology) are going through exactly that process at the >> moment, although we are replacing arcgis 9.2 rather than arcview. We >> are doing this primarily because changes in the licensing terms meant >> that we were no longer eligible for the educational discount, but it's >> part of a longer term move towards open source. We have spent some >> time investigating alternatives, and have a few contenders, and I'm >> sure we would be happy to advise, or provide a case study on this. >> Basically we are looking at gvsig and qgis as the main options- gvsig >> because it can use cad data, and qgis because we like the grass >> integration and it's slightly more user-friendly for english speakers >> (the translated version of gvsig still has some spanish bits in it). >> With slight changes to our work-flows, we are finding that these two >> packages will do almost everything we need a gis to do, with the >> exception of producing high-quality illustrations. To achieve this we >> are currently looking at export to svg or postscript for final editing >> in inkscape, but that's a work in progress. >> >> Contact me (off-list or on) if you would like some more information on >> this transition. >> >> All the best >> >> Jo >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> Joanne Cook >> Information Systems Coordinator >> Oxford Archaeology (North) >> 01524 880212 >> http://thehumanjourney.net >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:28:57 +1000 >> From: Cameron Shorter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement >> To: Miguel Montesinos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >> [email protected] >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Some Australian organisations are considering replacing their ArcView >> 3.1 desktops with an Open Source alternative. >> >> Is anyone aware of others who have gone through this process? >> If so, who are they? >> Do they have a case study? >> I'm particularly interested to see a review of ArcView features used >> by oganisation users, and compared against Open Source to see if the >> Open Source covered their requirements. >> >> I'm aware of this good review of Open Source Desktop clients at: >> http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/ >> >> > > -- David Percy Geospatial Data Manager Geology Department Portland State University http://gisgeek.pdx.edu 503-725-3373 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:41:20 +0100 From: Andrew Larcombe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 18 Apr 2008, at 23:15, percy wrote: > I think the key here is to discuss the Extensions to Arcview and > Arcmap. Much of the base functionality can be covered by these FOSS > desktop clients like gvSIG and QGIS and UDIG, but extensions like > Spatial analyst and 3D analyst, for some of us, is where it becomes > difficult to our work done using only FOSS. +1. Talk of 'replacing ArcGIS' in broadbrush terms is IMO the wrong approach. Certainly much of the viewing and simple analytical tools can be replaced straight off by QGIS, more advanced stuff by GRASS, some by PostGIS/OGR/GDAL/Mapserver or a combination of all of these. There's no drop-in replacement for ArcGIS per-se but if not all, then most, of its functionality can be handled by FOSS. Maybe a functional- based ArcView replacement howto might be in order? Cheers, A -- Andrew Larcombe Freelance Geospatial, Database & Web Programming web: http://www.andrewlarcombe.co.uk email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 306690163 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:12:13 -0500 From: Howard Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Apr 18, 2008, at 5:15 PM, percy wrote: > I think the key here is to discuss the Extensions to Arcview and > Arcmap. Much of the base functionality can be covered by these FOSS > desktop clients like gvSIG and QGIS and UDIG, but extensions like > Spatial analyst and 3D analyst, for some of us, is where it becomes > difficult to our work done using only FOSS. I think a key component would be an open source interpreter for Avenue implemented for either QGIS, uDig, or gvSIG. It wouldn't need to be complete parity with what ArcView 3.x had, but if it were at least an 80/20 solution, folks with scripts and utilities that they're using for basic data manipulation and simple analysis would have an upgrade path. ESRI abandoned lots of smalltime developers when they moved from ArcView 3.x to ArcGIS and didn't bring the Avenue folks along for the ride. Rather than face the migration cost of rewriting all of their Avenue code, they're just sitting there hoping things will continue to work unsupported for a while. ESRI's not going to bring Avenue forward -- they've moved on to .NET and COM Python wrappers -- and I think there's a significant audience of analysis-oriented folks that were left behind. If the open source world gave these folks a potential migration path, it might generate enough interest and funding to bootstrap it. Alternatively, if ESRI wanted to totally fluster the open source desktop market, they could GPL ArcView (the pieces of it they own and could actually license) and let all of us freetards froth over it for two or three years trying to beat it into some kind of shape. By the time we actually get it to work, they'll probably be end-of-life'ing ArcGIS and on to the next thing... Howard ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:39:05 -0600 From: "Eric Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] ArcView 3.1 replacement To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've always thought that GPL'ing ArcView would be both an outstanding and astounding move by ESRI. ArcView represents the state of GIS about 10 years ago. That was a good point in time because the fundamentals of GIS were well established by that point. A GPL'd ArcView could become a powerful educational tool that, ultimately, would drive greater demand for ArcGIS. As far as abandoning analysts with Avenue... ArcGIS through .NET and COM exposes considerably more functionality than you ever got with Avenue. The reason Avenue was so simple, semantically, was that the exposed functionality was very limited. Consider that ArcGIS Desktop (ArcView, ArcEditor, ArcInfo 9.2) are essentially just implementations of the functionality exposed by the ArcGIS COM objects. The objects are also available without the ArcGIS Desktop interface. The transition from ArcView 3.3 to ArcGIS was really hampered by it's complexity. This caused alot of delays that resulted in people getting really closely tied to Avenue and not feeling like they can adopt the ArcGIS COM structure. Overall, I'd say ESRI mostly has an identity problem. They still haven't fully realized that they are a software company. And they are a software company on the scale of Microsoft. They need people who are very good at structuring APIs. And they also need people who better understand software lifecycles. As for an opensource interpreter for Avenue... Most of the osgeo environments already have a solid scripting component - usually in Java. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, I think it's better for open source to move forward with things like JUMP. Of course, an Avenue interpreter in JUMP might be an interesting project! -Eric On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Howard Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Apr 18, 2008, at 5:15 PM, percy wrote: > > I think the key here is to discuss the Extensions to Arcview and Arcmap. > > Much of the base functionality can be covered by these FOSS desktop clients > > like gvSIG and QGIS and UDIG, but extensions like Spatial analyst and 3D > > analyst, for some of us, is where it becomes difficult to our work done > > using only FOSS. > > > > I think a key component would be an open source interpreter for Avenue > implemented for either QGIS, uDig, or gvSIG. It wouldn't need to be > complete parity with what ArcView 3.x had, but if it were at least an 80/20 > solution, folks with scripts and utilities that they're using for basic data > manipulation and simple analysis would have an upgrade path. > > ESRI abandoned lots of smalltime developers when they moved from ArcView > 3.x to ArcGIS and didn't bring the Avenue folks along for the ride. Rather > than face the migration cost of rewriting all of their Avenue code, they're > just sitting there hoping things will continue to work unsupported for a > while. ESRI's not going to bring Avenue forward -- they've moved on to .NET > and COM Python wrappers -- and I think there's a significant audience of > analysis-oriented folks that were left behind. If the open source world > gave these folks a potential migration path, it might generate enough > interest and funding to bootstrap it. > > Alternatively, if ESRI wanted to totally fluster the open source desktop > market, they could GPL ArcView (the pieces of it they own and could actually > license) and let all of us freetards froth over it for two or three years > trying to beat it into some kind of shape. By the time we actually get it > to work, they'll probably be end-of-life'ing ArcGIS and on to the next > thing... > > Howard > > _______________________________________________ > Geowanking mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.burri.to/mailman/listinfo/geowanking > -- -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=- Eric B. Wolf 720-209-6818 PhD Student CU-Boulder - Geography -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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