Maybe I should have used some tools to read, comprehend, and write a coherent and consistent response in English. ESL is obviously a challenge for me, and prohibits me from clearly articulating myself. But then again, I must not use tools, because I need to > train myself to write better texts.
On Tue, 14 Jul 2026 at 21:49, Wolfgang Jeltsch via ghc-devs < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi, Moritz! > > you raise various important questions and arguments, but unfortunately > this is somewhat spoiled by subtle misrepresentations of things I wrote, > stifling discussion based on your expressed lack of interest, and even > suggesting that people stating a certain opinion may act maliciously in > this. Given that, I don’t think it makes sense for me to comment on your > arguments in detail. > > All the best, > Wolfgang > > Am Di 14.07.2026 10:17 schrieb Moritz Angermann: > > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2026 at 2:59 AM Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: > > > > > On Saturday, 11 July 2026, 06:15 Moritz Angermann wrote: > > > > > > > I think it [the draft LLM policy] ignores the English as a Second > > > > Language part. If a contributor uses LLM tools to improve/rephrase > > > > documentation they write to use more natural, idiomatic and > > > > clearer English, I’d be very happy for them to do this. > > > > > > Note, though, that such LLM use carries the risk that people just > > > delegate the work of improving their texts to LLMs and thus don’t > > > train themselves to write better texts. > > > > That argument seems to come up again and again. You always have a > > choice to learn or not. Don’t use a calculator you won’t be able to > > do simple math in your head anymore. Don’t use computers to write > > letters your handwriting will degrade. > > > > This is imo gatekeeping. Don’t use X because you should really do it > > yourself by hand. We’d rather you stay away than use assistive > > technologies. Don’t use cars to travel, learn to ride a horse > > properly. > > > > > > “LLM-generated code will contain different mistakes than code > > > > written by humans does while the results often look very similar > > > > on the first glance.” If we make such a claim, we need to put > > > > substance to it; this needs a source. > > > > > > Good insight can come from a multitude of understanding, experience, > > > and reflection, while scientific studies on complex topics carry the > > > risk of oversimplifying matters. A good human judgement may be more > > > valuable than quoting a source. > > > > Fair, so this is meant to only be a neutral observation? We should > > remove the implied: LLMs make worse mistakes than humans from it then. > > While I agree that LLMs may make different mistakes to humans, I find > > implying that LLM mistakes are worse than human made mistakes > > (especially when assuming that a human used the tool only assistive, > > and fully owns the result), to be highly questionable if not outright > > malicious. > > > > > > where does attribution start? Am I going to add assisted by: vim, > > > > emacs, vscode, macros, stack overflow answers, snippets libraries? > > > > > > No, it is only about LLMs. 🙂 The functionality of editors and > > > macros is understandable by the user, the behavior of LLM systems is > > > not. > > > > Here we disagree; but this would likely end up splitting hairs on what > > the meaning of understanding behavior is and I have no interest in > > debating that. > > > > > > If I use an LLM to instantiate a for loop for me, auto complete an > > > > identifier, execute a macro, …? > > > > > > Why would you want to use an LLM for this? Doesn’t this make your > > > life harder, at least in the long run? > > > > This is pretty much the usecase for copilots auto complete. Basically > > a souped up version of intellisense like autocomplete + a snippets > > expansion. Just AI driven to get better context sensitive > > autocomplete. > > > > Again the argument missives the point. Why do I want to restrict > > other people in their freedom and prescribe them what and how to use > > things? Who am I to (a) assume I know better, and (b) dictate others > > what to do? > > > > > > I feel a lot of these policies feel like they try to > > > > prescribe/dictate some behavior instead of leading and focusing on > > > > the intended outcome. > > > > > > The outcome cannot be separated from the behavior that led to it. > > > Sure, there can be a lot of freedom regarding how people arrive at > > > their outcomes, but LLM systems are fundamentally different from > > > normal tools and thus using them may result in outcome of a > > > different kind. > > > > Okay then, no one is forcing anyone to use an LLM on the other hand > > there seem to be a significant number of people who think it is fine > > to try to force others not to use LLMs (for now; who knows what we’ll > > end up prohibiting next? Maybe using emacs because lisp is too > > powerful?). > > > > The asymmetry of the argument and perceived lack of self reflection in > > this discussion is what irritates me. > > > > If you are so against LLMs, and feel threatened by others using LLMs, > > please bring concrete receipts of LLM usage (on GHC), that directly > > impacts you and your freedom. I’m more than happy to engage in > > constructive factual and grounded arguments how to prevent abusive and > > freedom restricting behavior (not necessarily limited to LLMs even). > > I am not willing to continue arguing about hypothetical, ethical, > > sociological, philosophical or similar topics loosely relating to > > LLMs. > > > > Best, > > Moritz > _______________________________________________ > ghc-devs mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >
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