Hi all,
Just like to add to conversation to say I like the GUI of GIMP. I like
that I can customise the icons and theme used. I like that I can run single
window mode or multi-window mode. Like any program you have to invest time
and effort to learn it. I teach GIMP and I teach Photoshop to adult
students through community education. GIMP has been consistent in its GUI
throughout the years making it easy to adapt to new versions. On the other
hand Adobe products change stuff a lot just for the sake of change (or so
it seems). I know this because I have students with various versions of
Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop in the same class and I have to give different
instructions for each version. While I own Photoshop I default to using
GIMP because I prefer it. If someone else prefers Photoshop it is their
choice. I see Photoshop as a professional tool to be used in a suite of
programs and as such it probably has a smoother workflow switching between
the various programs in the web designer or creative suites. GIMP is made
by volunteers and it is not practical to constrain these volunteers to the
same GUI as other FOSS. I feel to suggest this is well intentioned but not
practical. But even Adobe lack consistency in GUI and how programs work
when you compare Photoshop Elements, Photoshop and Lightroom. It is like
these programs came from three different universes. Anyway great job being
done by the volunteers to get out GIMP 2.10.10.
Thanks
Terry
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 at 22:22, <gimp-gui-list-requ...@gnome.org> wrote:
> Send gimp-gui-list mailing list submissions to
> gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> gimp-gui-list-requ...@gnome.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> gimp-gui-list-ow...@gnome.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of gimp-gui-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (Elle Stone)
> 2. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (Alexandre Prokoudine)
> 3. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (VIKASH SINGH)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:43:28 -0400
> From: Elle Stone <ellest...@ninedegreesbelow.com>
> To: gimp-gui-list@gnome.org, VIKASH SINGH
> <vikashsingh25011...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
> Message-ID:
> <7b6266b8-9b9d-dda7-b82b-afb7ba088...@ninedegreesbelow.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Vikash,
>
> I agree with everything Jehan said in his response to your email, but
> wanted to add some comments and ask a couple of questions:
>
> On 04/18/2019 02:51 PM, VIKASH SINGH via gimp-gui-list wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am UI/UX Designer and I am interested to discuss some experience...
> >
> > This discussion is not only for GIMP but for Inkscape and Scribus too. If
> > we visit GIMP website their is quote GIMP is best used in workflows
> > involving other free software such as Scribus, Inkscape and SwatchBooker.
> > And Yes It is.
>
> It seems to me that "it" depends entirely on what a person actually uses
> GIMP for. Speaking for myself, I don't even have Inkscape, Scribus, or
> SwatchBooker installed on my computer. Instead I use GIMP for painting
> and photography, in conjunction with RawTherapee, darktable, PhotoFlow,
> Krita, Hugin, Exiftool, digiKam, etc, etc.
>
> How would your proposed changes to GIMP cohere with workflows that don't
> involve DTP and instead center around other tasks and goals for which
> people use GIMP, such as photography/painting/HDR processing/fits/fine
> art print production/video display output/image retouching, and etc?
>
>
> >
> > Most Forums I visit, I have found biggest complain from users is not
> having
> > good User Interface for these Applications. If we think for one second
> for
> > only one App GIMP then the User Interface is Ok. But when it is used in
> > workflows involving other free software then it is bad experience.
>
> People who don't like a software's interface tend to complain on forums.
> People who do like the interface, tend to not feel any need to tell the
> world they like the interface.
>
> Despite what various UI experts might want to believe, there is no "one
> size fits all" user interface. One person's "good user interface" can be
> another person's usability nightmare. Personally, I found darktable and
> Krita difficult to learn, but GIMP easy and intuitive. I've communicated
> with people who's experiences with these programs match my own, and also
> with people who report the exact opposite experiences. Also I prefer
> Gray themes and color icons, and I've communicated with some people who
> share my preferences and with other people who greatly prefer Dark
> themes and gray icons. Choice is good.
>
>
> > A Graphic Designer in Industry have to used all three raster, vector and
> > publishing applications. And Professional designers don't want to learn
> > applications they want to work done in much less time. Today I am finding
> > cases where designer don't even want to learn Adobe Illustrator they
> > preferring to use modern design apps Sketch and Adobe Xd that have few
> > functionalities but better experience.
>
> If a Graphic Designer doesn't want to learn how to use
> "Illustrator/Inkscape/Whatever Else is Required to Get the Job Done",
> that seems like an excellent reason to hire someone else. Speaking
> anecdotally, while working for a small company I was asked to use a DTP
> application to put out the monthly news letter, also including preparing
> graphics and writing copy. At that point I didn't even know there was
> such a thing as "DTP", but I figured it out and never missed an issue.
> Another job required editing an Illustrator file as the person who made
> the file was no longer around. I made the requested edits even though
> I'd never used Illustrator before.
>
> These sorts of programs aren't rocket science. Yes, they all have a
> learning curve. Any software with advanced functionalities has a
> learning curve. But learning software is just like learning anything
> else - you pick a task, or get handed a task, and figure out that task,
> and then move on to the next one. Pretty soon you are an expert.
>
> The best advice anyone can give an aspiring Graphics Designer who only
> wants to use software with "few functionalities but better experience"
> is to get over it and "learn to learn". These people aren't the ones who
> should be dictating software choices or UIs as they simply don't have
> the experience to know good softwares or UIs from bad.
>
>
> >
> > __________________
> > What is issue here ?
> > __________________
> >
> > Not having consistency with the other two software's.
> >
> > 1. Different Layouts & themes
> > 2. Different Icon Sets
>
> I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP already provides a huge
> array of user configuration options for layouts, themes, icons, keyboard
> shortcuts, etc.
>
> If DTP people really do want GIMP/Scribus/Inkscape to all somehow "look
> more alike", then hopefully the DTP people can come up with "look alike
> themes/icons/shortcuts/etc" to distribute for all three programs.
>
>
> > 3. Different Task Flow
> > 4. Different Tools Manipulators Flow(can create understanding problem)
>
> Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "task flow" and "tools
> manipulators flow"?
>
> It's not clear to me that a program like GIMP - which is used for such a
> hugely diverse array of editing tasks and output goals - should be or
> even could be optimized/shoe-horned into a set task flow.
>
>
> > 5. One have that feature another not and etc.
> > 6. (Everything that create inconsistency in these applications)
>
> Why do you want all these programs to have the same features?
>
> Do you want to throw away the "not in common" features? Or do you want
> to add all the features from all the programs to all the programs?
>
>
> > ___________________
> >
> > Even I Know its hard to solve. I already chatted with Inkscape developers
> > regarding this few months back that UI is so much locked. But even they
> > also wanted to have some consistency.
> >
> > I really want to see GIMP, Inkscape & Scribus team come together to work
> on
> > similar ideas concepts, designs and task flow to maintain consistency.
>
> I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP interface is already
> highly configurable, and "DTP-oriented" configurations could be
> distributed as config files and themes/icons.
>
> If the already available array of configuration options for GIMP isn't
> sufficient to set GIMP up for use in an envisioned seamless DTP
> workflow, then a specific list of what's missing would be a good place
> to start.
>
> Which brings the discussion around to Jehan's awesome idea of being able
> to easily exchange files between programs. The ability to easily
> exchange files between programs is something that would make imaging
> workflows in general (not just DTP workflows) considerably easier. It
> would be awesome to have the option to easily switch back and forth
> between different applications, for example sending a flattened version
> of the current image from GIMP to Krita to RawTherapee and back to GIMP,
> etc, or from Scribus to GIMP and back, or etc.
>
> Best,
> Elle
>
> > Thanks
> > Vikash
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gimp-gui-list mailing list
> > gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
> >
>
> --
> https://ninedegreesbelow.com
> Color management and free/libre photography
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:02:56 +0300
> From: Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com>
> To: gimp-gui-list <gimp-gui-list@gnome.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
> Message-ID:
> <
> cafjkzc2ktfdp5bamlb4q3wzui2btxc555vp2-lnxhho5_xp...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 4:31 PM VIKASH SINGH via gimp-gui-list wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
>
> Hello.
>
> I could give you a detailed reply on each of your points. In fact, I
> did just that and then scrapped it. Here is why.
>
> We (GIMP) have over 1.8K unsolved bug reports and feature requests,
> and just four developers between GIMP and GEGL.
>
> Inkscape team isn't all that larger, and they are in the middle of
> working on v1.0.
>
> Scribus team is currently one single developer working in his spare
> time, of which he doesn't have much.
>
> What do you expect these three teams to do, exactly?
>
> I know what to do about specific bug reports and feature requests. I
> can help file and triage them and then pray like hell that people will
> have the time to work on that stuff.
>
> I don't know what to do about vague ideas about some sort of missing
> consistency between applications that are designed to do different
> things and thus do it differently.
>
> I don't know what to do about the idea of giving vastly different
> applications the same feature set.
>
> I don't know what to do about the claim that people don't want to
> learn AI (vector graphics and illustration, print output), because
> they have Sketch and XD (UX prototyping).
>
> Do you think you could make _actionable_ requests that we could
> constructively discuss?
>
> Alex
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 15:56:01 +0530
> From: VIKASH SINGH <vikashsingh25011...@gmail.com>
> To: Elle Stone <ellest...@ninedegreesbelow.com>,
> gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
> Message-ID:
> <
> caogcuhq03wrqjscosm8xycprwyxabaeabk6c37wes2ee7xm...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Elle Stone,
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 7:10 PM Elle Stone <ellest...@ninedegreesbelow.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that "it" depends entirely on what a person actually uses
> > GIMP for. Speaking for myself, I don't even have Inkscape, Scribus, or
> > SwatchBooker installed on my computer. Instead I use GIMP for painting
> > and photography, in conjunction with RawTherapee, darktable, PhotoFlow,
> > Krita, Hugin, Exiftool, digiKam, etc, etc.
> >
> > How would your proposed changes to GIMP cohere with workflows that don't
> > involve DTP and instead center around other tasks and goals for which
> > people use GIMP, such as photography/painting/HDR processing/fits/fine
> > art print production/video display output/image retouching, and etc?
> >
>
> I agree and understand well. Changing something for particular kind of
> users
> (DTP users) leaving others (Digital artists& Photographers) that what I
> don't mean.
> Even I don't saying to change everything to give consistence. I understand
> how much
> difficult to do that. Even changing something can create problems to
> exiting users
> how they use these programs in which way.
>
>
> >
> > > 3. Different Task Flow
> > > 4. Different Tools Manipulators Flow(can create understanding problem)
> >
> > Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "task flow" and "tools
> > manipulators flow"?
> >
> > It's not clear to me that a program like GIMP - which is used for such a
> > hugely diverse array of editing tasks and output goals - should be or
> > even could be optimized/shoe-horned into a set task flow.
> >
>
> These points tends to hard to explain without going on deep research on
> each
> programs but I will try to explain in much simple way. What a user want
> from these
> programs is their goal(final image vector, raster, pdf, etc). Now Goals are
> divided into
> activities which in turn divided into tasks which again divided into
> actions.
>
> Now lets take an example for aligning objects, In GIMP, align options you
> will find in tool box.
> In Inkscape, align options it is dialog access from object menu. In
> Scribus, it is in dialog access
> from window menu. Now the task is same but actions are different for each
> application. Which
> will create confusing for first time users where to find align options. Now
> I am not saying about
> complete UI, I am approaching to little details that can solve for
> consistency. But I can't say which
> approach is better.
>
> For that purpose only, I have share idea for having a website (common
> communication channel )
> for creative applications so users can share ideas where he can get
> feedback and vote for their
> features and share how to solving existed approach (like blender community
> right click select).
>
>
> >
> > > 5. One have that feature another not and etc.
> > > 6. (Everything that create inconsistency in these applications)
> >
> > Why do you want all these programs to have the same features?
> >
> > Do you want to throw away the "not in common" features? Or do you want
> > to add all the features from all the programs to all the programs?
> >
> >
> No No, I am not saying to bundle all the features to all the application so
> it hard to distinguish
> what is for what purpose. It is set of some common features that some or
> these graphics
> programs can share. Let's say I really like to have GIMP perspective tool
> in Inkscape. Maybe,
> In future someone added perspective tool in Inkscape but it did't behave
> like GIMP perspective
> tool. It some 3d circular manipulator(like 3d software have for scaling
> rotating).
>
> >From all these years, each team has approach to their own way of doing
> things. Maybe in future
> these teams approach same way of doing things by having and finding ideas
> from one website
> that is center communication for all these graphics applications.
>
>
>
> >
> > I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP interface is already
> > highly configurable, and "DTP-oriented" configurations could be
> > distributed as config files and themes/icons.
> >
> > If the already available array of configuration options for GIMP isn't
> > sufficient to set GIMP up for use in an envisioned seamless DTP
> > workflow, then a specific list of what's missing would be a good place
> > to start.
> >
> > Which brings the discussion around to Jehan's awesome idea of being able
> > to easily exchange files between programs. The ability to easily
> > exchange files between programs is something that would make imaging
> > workflows in general (not just DTP workflows) considerably easier. It
> > would be awesome to have the option to easily switch back and forth
> > between different applications, for example sending a flattened version
> > of the current image from GIMP to Krita to RawTherapee and back to GIMP,
> > etc, or from Scribus to GIMP and back, or etc.
> >
>
> Yes, Even Jehan's Idea is a part to give consistency. Like same way their
> is lot's of
> way to follow but for all these atleast we need common hub communication
> for
> discussions between these teams and users. What is the need of saying these
> all to
> one team if another teams and users have just unaware of it.
>
> Ok, Developers want to solve specific bug report and feature request maybe
> that
> feature is common feature and it can benefit all these graphics
> applications but never
> discussed before that how it works and just added in one program. Maybe
> other have
> implemented the same feature with changes how it works. These things can be
> discussed
> other teams.
>
> Thanks
> Vikash
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-gui-list/attachments/20190427/d5aea666/attachment.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-gui-list mailing list
> gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of gimp-gui-list Digest, Vol 34, Issue 3
> ********************************************
>
--
Dr Terry Pinfold
Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager
University of Tasmania
17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000
Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053
_______________________________________________
gimp-gui-list mailing list
gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
