Hi! On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 4:43 AM Rick Strong <rnstr...@primus.ca> wrote:
> Gee, Jehan I'm really sorry I was so involved in getting photographs ready > for print tomorrow morning that I overlooked the possibility that YOU might > also be stressed out. I’m going blind in one eye, had a heart attack in > August and I’ve been going for over 12 hours now, but that’s no excuse. You > have my sympathy. [image: Crying face] > Hey no problem don't worry. Neither your email nor the one from the other person were rude or anything. I was just annoyed by the fact they were sent privately and it's true I'm quite tired these days. Anyway thanks for understanding and sorry to read about your health issues. I hope these will get better soon! 💌 Jehan > Rick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2022 8:29 PM > To: gimp-web-list ; GIMP User List ; gimp-gui-list@gnome.org ; GIMP Docs > ; gimp-developer ; gegl-developer-list > Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Discontinuation of mailing lists and moving to > Discourse > > Hi everyone! > > I received 2 off-list emails. Please do not send me off-list emails. I am > exhausted 😩 and cannot do private support in addition to public support, > code development, news writing, website making and everything else in GIMP. > 😛 > > This is even more true as I don't really see anything private/sensitive in > the 2 emails I received. Really no need to make them private, except for > making me work double (whereas as public emails, someone else could have > answered). I generally advise contributors to preserve themselves from > overworking by not answering to private messages. > > Anyway, regarding unhappiness about the new platform, I will mainly answer > that there is not much we can do. We are heavily relying on GNOME > Infrastructure (which we thank for this) and they have their own reasons > (one of them is that mailing lists are apparently one of the elements in > their stack which prevent them from dropping Python 2; we can relate!). Cf. > the link in my original email. > > Now we could always try to fight against the current and persuade GNOME > infrastructure team, but we made a small opinion tour among the current > core team and nobody really had particular love or use of our mailing > lists. Also we realize it's very low volume these days (barely a few > threads per month, counting all mailing lists together). Myself I barely > look at mailing lists every once in a while and make a random answer > sometimes. And there were several mailing lists I was not even subscribed > to (I did for the sake of this announcement). So that's probably why none > from the core team is really trying to fight this change. > > There is one more thing to take into consideration: more infrastructure > means more work. I said it above, I am exhausted by this all. I was only > managing one of the mailing lists so far (the gimp-gui one, the most > recent) and still had to regularly handle spams. I am personally thankful > that this work goes to GNOME admins now. Moreover I would not try to find > alternative mailing list providers either. Now, same as hundreds of > third-party forums discuss GIMP out there, people are welcome to create > third-party mailing lists to discuss GIMP if that's really what you are > into. I won't be such a person; and apparently it looks like nobody else > from the core team is so far. > > One last thing: I am aware that Discourse is not perfect. I also spent some > time today to try and understand how to efficiently transform it into a > mailing list equivalent. > > For questions about only receiving emails for the "gimp" tag, I think that > you should not try to use the "Enable mailing list mode" option. Instead > just go to the "gimp" tag page (https://discourse.gnome.org/tag/gimp), > click the bell icon on the top-right and set to "Watching" mode. This way, > you will be notified of absolutely all messages for this tag. Then in your > "Emails" preferences, set "Email me when I am quoted, replied to, my > @username is mentioned, or when there is new activity in my watched > categories, tags or topics" to "always". This should transform every > notification into emails, in other words you will receive an email for > every message added in the "gimp" tag. You can even directly reply to a > notification email from your mail client without going to Discourse. > At least, so far it worked for me (I tried today, and I only received > emails for the 2 messages which came in with the "gimp" tag, no other > emails). So it's probably the right setting. > > Anyway please understand that it's really not about comparing the Discourse > and mailing list technologies. GIMP is not a discussion platform, we only > provide these channels on the side because it's a cool community tool, but > we cannot spend all our time managing these. This is why we need to go with > the flow of what GNOME is proposing (as long as it's not completely wrong; > e.g. if they had proposed to go for some walled garden proprietary network > for the main discussion channels, I would have questioned the choice). I am > not into gamification, infinite scrolls or such things either. Us accepting > this platform is not about us wanting these. It's really about having a > limited core team and nobody highly interested into maintaining complicated > infrastructure for a different system than what GNOME does. That's about > it. > > Also for the 2 people who sent private emails, forgive me for not answering > directly and privately to you. It's not against you, I just hope you will > understand I am trying to preserve my mental sanity here. Someone was even > apparently "shocked" that I used a gmail account. The reason is actually > exactly the same (avoiding private emails): historically I wanted to avoid > spreading my main email address too much (even though I now realize it was > a vain wish, I was young back then! 😜) so I created this account as a > trash email, maybe 15 years ago, and that's the address I historically used > to subscribe to mailing lists. I am still receiving uncountable numbers of > emails daily. > And now you'll understand why I am doing a single and hopefully last answer > on this topic. I'm just tired and don't want to paste the same email twice > (or more). > > Actually sending private emails, you kind of made a counter-argument > against mailing lists where it is indeed quite common that people feel they > can just continue discussions in private. But there is a reason why it's > public: anyone can join in, help and contribute to the discussion. No need > to involve a single person only (forbidding others to help by going > private). In GIMP, we work in full transparency, with public > infrastructure. We don't want private discussions, and unfortunately as you > showed, this is often what some people believe they can afford to do with > emails. So you both shot your opinion in the foot by telling me that > mailing lists are better while deciding not to use these to tell me this. > 🤣 > > So yes, bottom line: mailing lists will be gone. It's not a private > decision from anyone in GIMP team (I got notified today myself of the > end-of-month deadline), though clearly nobody fought against it either. > It's not really something we can or want to control so there is really no > need to give counter-arguments here. If you really wish to do so, you are > welcome to ask the GNOME Infrastructure team. If they back down from their > decision, we'll happily comply and keep the mailing lists. > > Jehan > GIMP team > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 10:00 PM Jehan Pagès <jehan.marmott...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 9:48 PM Rick Strong <rnstr...@primus.ca> wrote: > > > >> So if I want to ask a question about using GIMP, or respond to a > >> question, > >> how do I do it? > >> > > > > Well basically same as you always did, except that now it will be on one > > of the Discourse instances, such as the pixls.us one or the GNOME one. > > Instead of being subscribed to a mailing list, it's on Discourse (which > is > > basically a modern-time forum, as I see it), on which you'd have a > > login/account. :-) > > > > Jehan > > > > Rick > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list > >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2022 12:38 PM > >> To: gimp-web-list ; gimp-developer ; GIMP User List ; > >> gimp-gui-list@gnome.org ; gegl-developer-list ; GIMP Docs > >> Subject: [Gimp-user] Discontinuation of mailing lists and moving to > >> Discourse > >> > >> Hello everyone! > >> > >> The GNOME Foundation has been moving all its discussions to a Discourse > >> forum, progressively: > >> > >> > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html > >> > >> We were informed today that they are on the last stage of this migration > >> and that all the mailing lists will be fully retired by the end of > >> October. > >> This implies also all of GIMP and GEGL mailing lists. > >> > >> Instead, people wishing to discuss about GIMP are expected to use > GNOME's > >> Discourse instance. In particular 2 tags were created for us: > >> > >> * "gimp" tag for GIMP-related discussions: > >> https://discourse.gnome.org/tag/gimp > >> * "gegl" tag for GEGL-related discussions: > >> https://discourse.gnome.org/tag/gegl > >> > >> We don't have as many tags as we used to have mailing lists, just these > 2, > >> but since all our lists are quite low volume these days, I didn't think > it > >> was worth asking, at least for now. GNOME admins confirmed that it would > >> not be a problem to add new tags in the future if we ever decided we > >> needed > >> more (e.g. having a "gimp-dev" tag or whatnot). > >> > >> By the way, noteworthy information: GIMP has had already an official > >> presence on pixls.us Discourse: https://discuss.pixls.us/gimp/ > >> We discussed among the team if it was worth having presence on both > >> pixls.us > >> and GNOME discourse and we came to the conclusion that the audience is > >> different, therefore it is interesting to stay on both communities. For > >> discussion with existing GNOME contributors, translators and various > GNOME > >> users for instance, they might be already on the GNOME Discourse. On the > >> other hand, pixls.us is a much more specialized forum/community on > >> Photography in particular, and is also probably more > platform-independent > >> too. > >> > >> Last but not least, as I expect that some people might prefer > interacting > >> by email, I tried to look up what are the possibilities. This thread > >> "Interacting with Discourse via email" is of interest: > >> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/interacting-with-discourse-via-email/46 > >> > >> It didn't have the ability to create new threads easily, especially > tagged > >> with the "gimp" keyword. Discourse has a way to create a topic on a > >> specific category but we couldn't find for tags, for instance you can > send > >> an email to community @ discourse.gnome.org (note that it doesn't work > >> for > >> every category, e.g. it didn't work for infrastructure; I haven't tested > >> others). With Andrea Veri, GNOME Infrastructure admin, we came up with a > >> special email hook: any email with "[GIMP]" in the subject will be > tagged > >> "gimp". > >> Nevertheless you need to have level 1 trust level for this to work. We > >> aren't sure exactly what it means other than having participated enough > >> (whatever "enough" is) to the Discourse first. 🤷 > >> > >> See: > >> > >> > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/gimp-how-to-send-emails-to-discourse-tagged-for-gimp-forum/11535 > >> > >> So I guess, let's continue discussing there everyone! 🤗 > >> > >> Jehan > >> GIMP maintainer > >> > >> -- > >> ZeMarmot open animation film > >> http://film.zemarmot.net > >> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/ > >> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot > >> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gimp-user-list mailing list > >> List address: gimp-user-l...@gnome.org > >> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list > >> List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list > >> > >> > > > > -- > > ZeMarmot open animation film > > http://film.zemarmot.net > > Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/ > > Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot > > Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot > > > > > -- > ZeMarmot open animation film > http://film.zemarmot.net > Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/ > Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot > Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot > _______________________________________________ > gimp-user-list mailing list > List address: gimp-user-l...@gnome.org > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list > -- ZeMarmot open animation film http://film.zemarmot.net Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/ Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
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