>On Tuesday, 13 July 1999, drarn writes:
> * snap to stem end when close <<== *please* do not support >the odious
>practice of putting short slurs over beams.
====================Jan Nieuwenhuizen
i) We'd like to support everything: the user should be in command.
ii) Having said that, we don't plan to do thing wrong on purpose/by
default.
--------------------
The slur should be pushed toward the end of the stem as necessary, and
the stem should lengthen enough to accomodate it if there are beams.
=====================
Huh? I think I don't understand. You want to have
A)
======
| __ |
|/ \|
x| x|
instead of this:
B) ___
/ \
======
| |
x| x|
* I haven't seen A), ever.
------------------------
Examples: *Everything*, modern and not, published by Schott under
Segovia's name, from the 1920's into at least the 1960's.
Guitar music has always been done that way, until very recently, because
the guitar really executes slurs. The people who thought that it would
be a good idea to put slurs at the top of beams weren't really thinking
about slurs at all, but phrase marks. For that reason none of the
problems were ever considered:
1.) What if you are slurring one or more notes
of a tuplet? Do you squeeze it in under the
bracket? What if there is more than one
bracket or more other spanners of some sort?
Please observe that a slur does not ever
*have to* span more than two notes. There
is not one iota of difference between
_ _ _ ________
/ \/ \/ \ and / \ in execution.
Patience...
2.) What if there are simultaneous slurs? Five
are possible, for six strings. More if you
have more strings. Do some snap and some
not? How many snap? How many under the
bracket? Over?
3.) If some notes on the same stem are slurred
and some not, how can you tell which is
which?
The third point raises another issue. All notes on the same stem must
have the same time value, but time value tells when to play the next
note, not its own duration. All notes that do not originate ties or
slurs have a duration which is less than their time value. Is it illegal
to have notes of different duration on the same stem? That would rule
out having some notes slurred and some not, and it might rule out having
some notes originate ties and some not if the duration were considered
to include the tied note. Also one could not originate ties to notes of
different duration or time value from the same stem. For midi's sake,
these issues must be resolved somehow (or not?).
My own suggestion is to allow notes of different duration on the same
stem, but none that originate ties. Since a dotted note cannot be on the
same stem as one undotted, and since a dot is equivalent to a tied note,
it seems that notes originating ties could not coexist with notes not
originating ties on the same stem. The reason, however, is time value,
not duration. Please give warnings in such of these cases as you may see
fit or find necessary, but I think it a bit oppressive to make them all
impossible. Nevertheless, this gives you a possible way out for point 3,
above, but not:
4.) What if some slurred notes are produced
in a different manner from others? This
also can be done, and a straight line is
often used to indicate a slide. How can
one tell which note is slid?
Example of a mess: Heitor Villa Lobos, Etude #12, publ. Max Eschig,
(Schott), Paris, contains *hundreds* of examples of total failure to
deal with sliding. The engravers were so in love with snapping slurs to
the beams that they had no clue what to do when they couldn't, and they
were too damn lazy to make an effort to do it in any consistent way
throughout the composition. (It is excellent work, btw., just not nearly
good enough.)
Some authors use a straight line between left hand finger numbers to
indicate that the finger should be retained on the string. This can be
cut out by using hyphen(s):
2- -2 instead of 2-----------2
When the straight line is between noteheads, however, it means that one
should hear the slide. I do not myself understand the logic of
substituting the straight line for the slur indication. I want the
straight line to *supplement* the slur indication only where necessary,
because the straight line indicates how the slur should be done, not
whether it should be done. (That appears to have been Villa Lobo's
thinking.) Would you snap a straight line to the beam? Both straight and
curved lines? The slur should be closer to the notehead than the
straight line because the slur indicates what should be done, while the
straight line only indicates how it should be done, and it is not a
sequence issue.
Please consider the complete irrationality of treating slurs so much
differently from ties. The slur and the tie have the exact same effect
on the duration of the originating note. That is why it is so consistent
and elegant to use the same notation. Even the terminology is alike,
because the originating note is not said to be tied, nor is it slurred.
A phrase mark has very little to do with either. There can be no problem
of a slur and tie originating from the same point because they logically
can't. Certainly a phrase mark can originate from the same point as a
tie or a slur. But why should it? Move it out of the way, above or
below, so that the reader can tell whether he is looking at a phrase
mark or a slur.
I think that there is something wrong with considering the purely
superficial cosmetic issues to be more important than clarity. Snapping
slurs causes many problems and solves none. Pianists should use phrase
marks almost all the time anyway. I see no reason why a horn player
should not have slurs or ties within phrases, and unless he plays a
double aulos or something no one should want to snap his stuff.
I apologize for putting off *starting* this reply for so long. I think
that it is obvious why. It is going to require days to finish this. I
did some easy issues before coming back to this, but not because of
relative importance. I want to be able to use software that produces
correct notation, and most of what's out there does not. There is no
reason for a pianist to care about slurs, since he cannot do them, and
the vocalist does not need them, having the lyrics. *Please* separate
slurs from phrase marks.
IMHO the list of needed curved line types can be reduced to four:
1) Ties.
2) Slurs, including slides and portamento.
3) Grace note linkers.
4) Phrase marks, including melismas, a general
desire for more legato sound than legato,
breathing indication, or mere decoration.
I thank you much for your patience and more for your efforts, which seem
to me to be herculean. I'm not going to finish this today. Keep the
faith that doing things right is the easy way in the long run, when we
are all dead. :-)
--
Peace, understanding, health and happiness to all beings!
U U u ^^ ` 'U u U ''`'`
_-__o|oO|o-_|o_o_-_MN[-->mm@_-_--___o|o|oU_|o_o__lilypond
dave N Va USA David Raleigh Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED]
