Hi Mike, > It seems to me that the simplest solution, and one that might work reasonably > well, is to make it possible (via a view option) to switch any register into > the format used for non-currency registers where there are separate columns > for shares, price, and value for each split.
as a heavy user of multiple currencies and trading accounts I would very much welcome that. Cheers, Christoph > Am 20.08.2019 um 00:36 schrieb Mike Alexander <m...@umich.edu>: > > I’ve been thinking for a while about how the register could be changed to > better handle multiple currency transactions with trading accounts turned > on. Back when I implemented trading accounts I knew this was a problem. > However at that time it was expected that the Register2 rewrite of the > register code would make the old register code obsolete so I didn’t worry > about it too much. This is clearly no longer a valid assumption. > > It seems to me that the simplest solution, and one that might work reasonably > well, is to make it possible (via a view option) to switch any register into > the format used for non-currency registers where there are separate columns > for shares, price, and value for each split. The labels would need to be > changed for currency splits since “shares” becomes the value in the split’s > currency, “price” becomes exchange rate, and "value" remains the value in the > transaction currency. Getting all the details right might be tricky, but > this seems to have possibilities. > > The current code shows only one of those three values, and which one depends > on whether trading accounts are turned on. If they are on it shows the value > in the split’s currency. If off, it shows the value in the transaction's > currency. This adds still more confusion to the situation. A simple change > would be to make it always show the value in the split’s currency. At least > then there wouldn’t be this confusion about what is being shown. I didn’t do > this at the time because one of the goals was to make GnuCash work identical > to the way it worked before if trading accounts were turned off. > > If I get some free time I might try to play around with this idea and see > where it goes. If anyone else thinks this might work and wants to take a > crack at it, be my guest. My time for software development is very limited > these days. > > Mike > > PS: this probably should be moved to the Dev list if someone wants to > continue the discussion. > >> On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:12 PM, John Ralls <jra...@ceridwen.us> wrote: >> >> It's a difference in the way that the register works with or without trading >> accounts. If trading accounts are turned off then the register displays all >> splits converted to that register account's currency. If they're on then it >> displays each split in its own account's currency, with symbols for all but >> the current register's currency. >> >> When dealing with multiple currencies "balance" can adopt different >> meanings. GnuCash requires that a transaction must balance in the >> transaction currency, which is generally the one for the account in whose >> register the transaction was created (or the first parent account >> denominated in a currency if the register is for a non-currency account). >> Since in a currency register the transaction currency value and the exchange >> rate between the register currency and transaction currency are hidden that >> can be difficult, especially in split view where the user is responsible for >> getting the (possibly invisible) values right. The more currencies involved >> in the transaction the harder it gets. >> >> Regards, >> John Ralls >> >> >>> On Aug 16, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Jeff Abrahamson <j...@p27.eu> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, that's great, I'll have a play with that after work. >>> >>> Two points concern me: >>> >>> 1. I don't see currency symbols in my registers. Is this a setting? >>> >>> 2. I've been taught in accounting that transactions must balance, and >>> so I was expecting to see the GBP register all in GBP, the CHF register >>> all in CHF, and the EUR register all in EUR. That is, if one sums the >>> columns of a register, the Dr and Cr columns should have the same sum. >>> Am I confused about this principle? >>> >>> I'll need to read about the trading accounts feature. As someone who >>> regularly spends money in several currencies, I don't really think of >>> these transactions as P&L related, though I'm aware they could be >>> modeled that way. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> On 16/08/2019 18:13, Adrien Monteleone wrote: >>>> So the Cafe’s price was CHF 5.70? >>>> Your card was debited GBP 4.67? >>>> >>>> The Expense:Coffee account is set to EUR? >>>> >>>> >>>> First, yes, you’ll need Trading Accounts turned on. >>>> >>>> Second, open the price db and fetch rates, then check the EUR-GBP rate, >>>> you’ll need it later. (I don’t see a way around this at present) For this >>>> example, we’ll use 1.0957 which I fetched just now. >>>> >>>> >>>> Third, start your transaction by entering the following to ‘fund’ the card >>>> with CHF: >>>> >>>> Cr. Transferwise GBP 4.67 >>>> Dr. Transferwise_CHF CHF 5.70 >>>> >>>> (GnuCash will prompt for a GBP-CHF exhange rate, use the ‘debit’ radio >>>> button and field and enter the CHF amount, in this case, “-5.70") >>>> >>>> The transaction should now read something like: >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> Account Debit Credit >>>> >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise 4.67 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> >>>> (the 4.67 has no currency symbol because it is in the account’s currency - >>>> GBP) >>>> >>>> Fourth, enter the actual expense part of the transaction: >>>> >>>> Dr. Expenses:Coffee EUR 5.12 >>>> >>>> The EUR 5.13 price is based on today’s rate between EUR-GBP above and >>>> calculated either on the side, or directly in the debit-entry field. >>>> (enter as: GBP*rate or 4.67*1.0957) We’re using the EUR-GBP instead of >>>> CHF-EUR because this transaction is being entered in the Transferwise >>>> (GBP) account. >>>> >>>> When GnuCash prompts for the exchange rate, simply commit the FX window. >>>> We couldn’t wait to fetch the rate here, because we’d have to back out and >>>> re-enter the amount in the register to match. >>>> >>>> Now, the transaction reads like this: >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> Account Debit Credit >>>> >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise 4.67 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> >>>> Fifth, you need to balance this with CHF funds taken from the card: >>>> >>>> Cr. Transferwise_CHF 5.70 >>>> >>>> (GnuCash will again prompt for exchange rate, use ‘debit’ and “5.70” for >>>> the amount) >>>> >>>> The transaction now looks like this: >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> Account Debit Credit >>>> >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise 4.67 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> >>>> Sixth, since you have Trading Accounts turned on, when you hit `Enter` to >>>> commit this transaction GnuCash will add the balancing splits so your >>>> transaction looks like this in final form: >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> Account Debit Credit >>>> >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 >>>> Trading:CURRENCY:GBP £4.67 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise 4.67 >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 >>>> Trading:CURRENCY:EUR €5.12 >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> You can of course, make the transaction more ‘complete’ (or complicated as >>>> per your perspective) by also using actual CHF-GBP and CHF-EUR rates and >>>> accounting for the conversion fee rather than using the ‘debit’ option for >>>> those two splits. >>>> >>>> You could also separate this into two transactions, one to ‘fund’ the CHF, >>>> then another to spend that on Coffee. >>>> >>>> Note, that I tried doing this from the Expense account, but it was messy. >>>> I also couldn’t find a way to get GnuCash to calculate the EUR price of >>>> the transaction for me using the fetched rate. Maybe someone else has a >>>> trick up their sleeve. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Adrien >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 15, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Jeff Abrahamson <j...@p27.eu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I purchased a coffee in Switzerland using my GBP-based Transferwise >>>>> card. That card could hold a CHF balance, but on that day it held only >>>>> GBP. My local currency is EUR. So I can think of my coffee purchase as >>>>> two FX transactions: funding (GBP -> CHF) and an expense (CHF -> EUR). >>>>> >>>>> What Transferwise tells me is the amount of the purchase and the amount >>>>> of the transaction. (I can also poke further and find the exchange rate >>>>> they used and the minuscule fee, but the important point to me is the >>>>> the two endpoints.) >>>>> >>>>> Now what makes sense to me based on reading about accounting principles >>>>> for multiple currencies is that I should make one transaction thus: >>>>> >>>>> Coffee (CHF) <-- Bank (GBP) # This is the funding part of >>>>> the transaction. >>>>> Expense acct <-- Coffee (CHF) # Here I'm tracking the actual >>>>> expense. >>>>> >>>>> I put those in a single transaction for easier understanding later. >>>>> Here I've created a bank account for Transferwise (GBP) as well as >>>>> subaccounts of that called Transferwise_CHF and some others, denominated >>>>> in the indicated currencies. Those three accounts are transfer >>>>> accounts: I usually expect them to have zero balance. >>>>> >>>>> Transferwise_CHF <-- Transferwise (GBP) # This is the >>>>> funding part of the transaction. >>>>> Expense/cafe <-- Transferwise_CHF # Here I'm tracking >>>>> the actual expense. >>>>> >>>>> Gnucash asks me for some exchange rates, and I answer for the CHF - GBP >>>>> part with the specific numbers provided by Transferwise and for the GBP >>>>> - EUR part with the exchange rate I've downloaded for that date. >>>>> >>>>> I expect to see this in the account Transferwise_CHF >>>>> >>>>> 5.70 <-- 5.70 # This is the funding part of the transaction. >>>>> 5.70 <-- 5.70 # Here I'm tracking the actual expense. >>>>> >>>>> and this in the Transferwise (GBP) account >>>>> >>>>> 4.67 <-- 4.67 # This is the funding part of the transaction. >>>>> 4.67 <-- 4.67 # Here I'm tracking the actual expense. >>>>> >>>>> and something similar looking at the splits in the (euro-denominated >>>>> expense account). >>>>> >>>>> But what I see (from the perspective of the CHF account) is this, which >>>>> makes no sense to me: >>>>> >>>>> Gnucash has entered the 2.80, and deleting that split just makes it pop >>>>> up again. Something is terribly wrong if any account's view of the >>>>> transaction doesn't balance. (This is gnucash 3.4, ubuntu, build id >>>>> 3.4+ (2018-12-30). >>>>> >>>>> Is this my error or a bug in gnucash? Any pointers? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Somewhat related, I thought to import historical currencies, as I'm back >>>>> filling some data for analysis purposes. I grabbed 10 years of daily >>>>> quotes and imported them (3600 or so rows of data per currency). All ok >>>>> for GBP - EUR. When I do the same for CHF - EUR, gnucash says it's done >>>>> it, but the price database doesn't show more than a handful. When I do >>>>> it for JPY - EUR, gnucash says it's done but the price editor shows none >>>>> of them. The proposed exchange rates when entering transactions are >>>>> consistent with what the price editor thinks it knows. >>>>> >>>>> Is there a limit on FX rates? (This is about 4000, which doesn't strike >>>>> me as terribly large.) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Abrahamson >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnucash-user mailing list >>>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >>>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >>>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >>>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. >>>> ----- >>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Jeff Abrahamson >>> +33 6 24 40 01 57 >>> +44 7920 594 255 >>> >>> http://p27.eu/jeff/ >>> http://transport-nantes.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnucash-user mailing list >>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. >>> ----- >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > ----- > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. _______________________________________________ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. ----- Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. 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