Hi Everyone, Oops. I missed two posts from Jim and did not reply to one other. I apologize for that. Here is a correction.
On Oct 8 18:28:00 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >I fear that Bruce McCoy pushed this thread >astray by introducing the phrase "books… >out of balance". This moved the topic from >GnuCash handling of securities transactions >to GnuCash handling of the Trial Balance. >That led to discussion of cost of goods sold, >and GnuCash not having support for cost >accounting, and so on. The cost of goods sold and lack of support for cost accounting, among other things, were discussed. >The digression does not strike me as helping Bruce... Yes. Yet, could there be a way in which some digressions might help us? By noting the topics we are not discussing (at least one of which is mentioned below), could that make clearer what we are discussing? Could it help us generate an agenda? One might say, “Within the general topic of ‘Encouraging people to use GnuCash,’ how they look at the way GnuCash views security transactions was the specific subject for discussion.” On Oct 8 20:15:05 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >Many people have told you, Bruce, that the >practical way[*] to read this broker statement Jim, in your discussion of “the practical way[*]” you provide a great illustration. You are careful to define terms and this is an excellent thing to do in presenting a position. It provides clarity to your readers. Thank you for providing it. >is as: > > "_exactly_ 1,377.41 shares, > price _approximately_ 10.89, amount > _exactly_ $15,000.00" > >when entering the transaction to GnuCash, >enter exactly 1,377.41 as the number of >shares, exactly 15,000.00 as the amount of >the transaction, and leave the price blank. >GnuCash fills in a price of 15000000/137741, >and stores that internally. GnuCash might >display the price as either 10 + 50000/137741 >or $10.8900, depending on the currency and >the user preferences, And John Ralls’ work is a wonder. Its precision is 1/2^64. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for his contributions. >but remember that display and internal exact >value need not be the same thing. >... >I also see an error in failing to use GnuCash >in the way which best fits the provided >information, to record the transaction. As far as I know, we, in the GnuCash community, all agree that if we enter 1,377.41 as the number of shares, and 15,000.00 as the amount of the transaction, and leave the price blank. GnuCash will fill in a price of 15000000/137741, and store that internally. The precision of the price is 1/2^64. People familiar with GnuCash expect that. At least I do. That is my understanding of how GnuCash works. >I see...a conceptual error by you, in interpreting >a logically inconsistent broker transaction report... OK. I do make lots of errors. I appreciate our working together to advance the development of GnuCash. Thank you. Let’s look at this situation. You expanded on the topic in a later post. So, let’s include that as well. On Oct 25 21:49:36 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >you are holding fast to assertions which I >think are mistaken, and which lead you to >misunderstanding. Let me highlight a few >... >On 2023-10-25 17:00, Bruce McCoy via >gnucash-user wrote: >> ...In the following, we assume "value/price >>produces an amount representable in the share >>commodity's minimum fraction." >> >>We also assume that an "exactly precise" number >>has the same precision as the smallest currency >>unit (SCU). > >these...assumptions are faulty. The >will lead you to misunderstandings Jim, we agree that holding fast to assertions which are mistaken leads to indefensible conclusions. The same holds true for many assumptions. And you are right. Examining both assumptions and assertions are essential. In discussions such as this, assertions may be things stated positively. “We are certain that the sun is shining and there is, now, no shade on the patio.” might be an example. Assumptions suppose (or consider) something to be a fact. They may be limiting or not. The first assumption cited is from John Ralls. On 9 Sep 2023 15:36 John Ralls wrote: >So the claim value = price * shares is logically >correct but depends on price * shares yielding a >legal value in value's currency; the reverse is >true as well: shares = value/price is true only >if value/price produces an amount representable >in the share commodity's minimum fraction. This assumption is an example of a limiting assumption. Inclusion lets the readers know that the discussion is limited to cases in which the condition is true. This assumption was added to let John Ralls know that this section would be one in which the values and prices would be representable in GnuCash. On Oct 25 21:49:36 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >Your unhelpful broker only lets you buy >whole shares Nominated for Joke of the Day. On 9 Sep 2023 15:36 John Ralls wrote: >Commodities, both currency and otherwise, have >minimum fractions. When John Ralls discusses “minimum fractions” he seems to be referring to the Rational Number functions in GnuCash. Since the Rational Number functions in GnuCash are so very accurate (1/2^64), any rounding they do is negligible in relation to any SCU rounding under discussion below. On Oct 7 15:48:25 EDT John Ralls wrote: >Prices are always calculated to the full numeric >precision of 1/2^64. Amounts and values are what >get rounded to the respective commodity/currency's >smallest unit. In GnuCash, the “Amounts and values are what get rounded” by the Rational Number functions are already so accurate that any rounding they do is comparatively negligible. What is a Smallest Currency/Commodity Unit (SCU)? On Oct 25 21:49:36 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >value = 1000.00 USD (in smallest currency unit) >price = 171.10 USD (in smallest currency unit) The GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide[1] says, “Smallest Fraction - Specify the smallest fraction of the security/commodity that is traded”[2]. On 9 Sep 2023 15:36 John Ralls wrote: >there is no such thing as a fraction of >a car, a tenth of a Japanese Yen, or >one thousandth of a US Dollar. With reference to the Smallest Currency/Commodity Unit, John is correct when he asserts there is no such thing as “one thousandth of a US Dollar.” >...we provide a preference that will display it >as a decimal with two more fractional digits >than the currency's smallest, so in the case of >USD it would display as $10.8900 For the three examples in this section, would the SCU of USD be denominated in dollars, cents or another value? The GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide[3], Figure 9.14 provides the following information: Figure 9.14. The Price Database With The List Of All Known Commodities Currency Date Source Typ Price Security NASDAQ AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 03/13/05 user:price-editor last 35.990000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 03/06/05 user:price-editor last 36.220000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 02/27/05 user:price-editor last 37.210000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 02/21/05 user:price-editor last 38.350000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 02/13/05 userzprice-editor last 39.190000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 02/06/05 userzprice-editor last 38.520000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/30/05 user:price—editor last 38.330000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/23/05 user:price—editor last 45.220000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/17/05 userzprice-editor last 43.920000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/09/05 user:price—editor last 44.400000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/03/05 user:price—editor last 47.870000 AMZN (Amazon.com) USD(US Dollar) 01/01/05 userzprice-editor last 40.500000 AMZN (Amazon.com) In the Price column, we observe that the numerals occupying the thousandths, ten thousandths, hundred thousandths, and millionths places are all zeros. John Ralls’ standard for GnuCash is to display “a decimal with two more fractional digits than the currency's smallest, so in the case of USD it would display as $10.8900.” Let’s ask each reader of this post what their opinion is. It may be that some of them will help us. In Figure 9.14, what is the implication, if any, in the implied precision of the currency figures? On Sep 8 17:48:06 EDT 2023 Bruce McCoy wrote: >Jim, > >What a pleasure to read your response... >You are kind enough to say: >... >For your security, what is the value for "fraction >traded" in the security window? It should be 1/1000 >or smaller. What is the value for "Smallest Fraction" >in that dialogue box? It should be "Commodity Value". > >You are exactly right. I corrected my mistake. >Thank you for helping me. > >Best Regards, > >Bruce Jim, you have been and continue to be a tremendous help in this thread. Although only one example is cited here, it is by no means the only one in which you have corrected me or given me better ideas. It is a pleasure to partner with you to try to improve GnuCash’s potential to attract more users. Making GnuCash easier to use might be one way. Adding more functionality to GnuCash might be another. Thank you for your efforts in developing GnuCash. On Oct 25 21:49:36 EDT Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >I believe that your definition of "exactly precise" >is different from the plain meaning of the words. You are right. This second assumption is a limiting assumption. The term "exactly precise" was meant to refer to the Smallest Currency/Commodity Units as defined by GnuCash in the references above. That is to say that in GnuCash the Smallest Currency/Commodity Units have an infinite number of digits, each with the value of zero, to the right of the decimal place. If in GnuCash the Smallest Currency/Commodity Units do not have an infinite number of digits having the value of zero to the right of the decimal place, how can the number be a unit? I was just looking for a short phrase to express that thought. I am sorry I did not pick a phrase, possibly with an acronym, that might have expressed the idea more clearly. Maybe I should have said a SCU is an Integer (or a whole number) of Infinite Precision (IOIP). Would that help? >the number-of-shares figures (as precise) and >the price-per-share figures (as approximations). To my knowledge, GnuCash follows its own definition of the Smallest Currency/Commodity Units everywhere in GnuCash, but for certain exceptions. These exceptions are in the practice or convention of GnuCash to consider the currencies representing the price-per-share figures, or maybe the value-of-the-transactions, as not always having a SCU. We agree that people do best following decisions giving correct results. We agree that GnuCash users typically view the “number-of-shares figures (as precise) and the price-per-share figures (as approximations).” The second assumption was initially stated as “We also assume that an ‘exactly precise’ number has the same precision as the smallest currency unit (SCU).” By substituting IOIP for "’exactly precise’ number”, we have “We also assume that an Integer of Infinite Precision has the same precision as the smallest currency unit (SCU).” What I am looking for here is a phrase to replace the term “exactly precise”, because that phrase, even though it was the best I could think of at the time, was not clear enough. Today my clearest suggestion is “Integer of Infinite Precision.” I would like to verbally describe the characteristics of a SCU. I am not looking for an analytic proposition. I am looking for a comprehensible description which might be found in a thesaurus or, better yet, a synonym or a synonymous expression. Please feel free to improve the current idea. >GnuCash agrees with financial firms in its >treatment of the number-of-shares figures (as >precise) and the price-per-share figures (as >approximations). How do we know that? >It is common for the representation of the price >to not precisely convey the numerical value of >amount/quantity It is common for GnuCash to find that the price-per-share is not an integer with infinite precision. The price-per-share is expressed in currency units. How can a smallest currency unit not be an integer with infinite precision? Best Regards Bruce [1] GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide, Part II. The Common Usage, Chapter 9. Investments, Setup Investment Portfolio, Example Stock Account. [2] Here are two more references referring to the same information. 1) GnuCash Manual Chapter 5. Setting Up, Editing & Working with Accounts, Creating a New Account, General Information Tab says, “Smallest Fraction: The smallest fraction that will be tracked.” 2) GnuCash Manual, Chapter 8. Tools & Assistants, Security Editor says, “Name: The full name of the commodity is a recognizable name such as US Dollars or IBM Common Stock. Fraction: This is the smallest traded unit of the commodity, expressed as a fraction of a single nominal unit. This unit is used by GnuCash accounts as the default fraction for trades in the commodity. [3] GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide, Part II. The Common Usage, Chapter 9. Investments, Setting Share Price. | | Virus-free.www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user ----- Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. 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