I respond to two postings below; the first from Jean Kempf, the second from Jean-Claude Guedon. (I remind readers that the query that started this thread was about where to place the link in the IR metadata for a self-archived author postprint so as to satisfy the request of Green publishers to do so. The topic has since been directed to the question of how to indicated the location of quoted passages when one is citing a self-archived author postprint...) -- SH
(1) On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Jean KEMPF wrote: > to convince scholars to come to OA, we must pay great attention to the > differences between the... disciplines... If they are not respected... > no chance of winning some departments over to OA. And page number citation > is not simply a "residual Gutenberg compulsion"... There are no discipline differences whatsoever in the pertinent respect here: If *quoting* a passage (not just *citing* the whole work), go ahead and use pages if you have access to the print version. No contest. (Users of the unpaginated OA version will be able to find the quotes easily with a string-search.) If you don't have access to the print version, use section heading and paragraph number. (It's actually a good idea in both cases.) > Many documents... exist in two physical forms [print and online] > In this case the UR version (the quoted one) must remain the printed > one and thus one (still) needs to refer to the folio (page number). Fine. Use the page numbers (or both) whenever you have access. If not, use just section heading and paragraph number. Note: No discipline has a scholarly tradition concerning how to quote a passage when one does not have access to the version with the page numbers. If the choice is between not quoting at all, for lack of the page numbers, or quoting using section heading and paragraph number, I think the choice is obvious, in any discipline. (And I think it would be an utter waste of time for a self-archiving author to take the trouble to generate a PDF whose pagination matched the journal's print version! We are still in an era where, despite the dramatic author benefits, it requires institutional and funder mandates in order to induce authors to do the few keystrokes that it takes to make their refereed final drafts OA, in their exact current form, so that all would-be users who cannot access the toll-access version can nevertheless access and use the OA version. It would be absurd to ask those already-sluggish authors to do *more* -- to generate a PDF that matches the pagination of the journal version -- just so as to provide the page-data for possible quotes. Let's worry about OA provision first, and page-information for quotes after, if need be. [I am dead certain the page fetish for quotes will die a natural death before that.]) (2) On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Jean-Claude Guedon wrote: > The work is a content, not an instantiation of same in a particular form. > What is protected by copyright is a form of expression that has taken > material form, not a particular material instantiation of the mode of > expression. But we are not talking about copyright. We are talking about whether or not page numbers are needed in order to quote passages from a self-archived OA version that lacks the page numbers of the publisher's toll-access PDF. > Likewise, peer review deals with a content, a form of expression, not a > particular material form of instantiation. As a result, peer review is > not tied to a particular material form... [T]he publisher gives it a > particular material form, be it print or bits. All true, but not at all relevant to what we are discussing: We are discussing how to cite and quote the author's final peer-reviewed draft of a published journal article. If anything was missing, it was the publisher's pagination, not the peer review. And the peers reviewed for free, but it was the (publisher's) editor who picked the peers, specified which of their recommendations must be followed in the author's revision, determined whether the revision had been successful, and certified the outcome with the journal name. All of that is there, in the author's OA postprint. The only thing missing is the page numbers of the publisher's PDF. There is no citation problem. And there is certainly no need for the author's institution to somehow claim that the peer-reviewed draft has been "published" by the institution: It was published by the journal. The journal implemented the peer review and certified its outcome with its name (not the institution). And it is the journal that is cited when citing the work. The OA version in the IR is merely a way to provide access to the cited work. > Citation, on the other hand, is tied to a particular material because > citation is aimed at helping retrieval. The cited work is the published work. We are simply talking about where in the cited work the *quoted* (or noted) passages occur. In the absence of the pagination, specifying the section heading and paragraph number is just fine. > If we cite down to the page level in many disciplines, it is to help > check that the citation is indeed correct, that the text cited is not > cited out of context, etc. It is fundamental for the work of scientists > and scholars. That's fine. The section heading and paragraph number accomplishes exactly the same ends. > Because of its retrieval function, citation has provided an important > handle for publishers to make their material version of a text the > "canonical" version. However, if the IR material version of the same is > declared citable by declaring that it is a certified copy of the peer > reviewed "work", then it can be cited directly. The certification comes > from the good name of the hosting institution - presumably a university > or reputable research centre. The author's refereed final draft can be both cited and quoted directly whether or not it has been "certified" (or "validated": http://valrec.eprints.org/ ) as being verbatim identical with the published version. (Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that it has indeed been checked and so certified.) The issue was: having been "certified" as verbatim-identical with the publisher's version *except for the pagination* what do we cite and quote, and how? Answer: We continue to cite the published version, as always. And we pinpoint quoted passages by section heading and paragraph number. We could, as Jean-Claude suggests, instead pinpoint quoted passages based on the divergent pagination of the self-archived version in the IR, but it seems to me that that would not be a very useful practice (e.g., for readers of the citing article who have access to the journal version: it confuses them, needlessly). But nothing much hangs on this, one way or the other. It seems to me a very minor, even trivial, contingency. > In line with this analysis, many of us have begun providing the on-line > address of the documents we cite when they are in open access so as to > facilitate the retrieval needs of our colleagues. One small, extra step, > is needed to complete the process: just declare the IR version to be an > acceptable source for a citation. Of course all citations (of the published journal article!) should be accompanied by the URL of the OA version (so those who can't afford access to the publisher's version can still access the article). Everyone who provides or uses OA content should do that. But the only two questions here were: (1) Where to put the link to the publisher version (especially when the publisher is Green on self-archiving and has asked for the link)? (Answer" In the IR's "other locations" field.) (2) How to quote specific passages from the OA version? (Answer: section heading and paragraph number. Inefficient option: pagination of the self-archived version.) No one using OA articles has felt the need for the IR to "declare the IR version to be an acceptable version." (The problem so far has been to get the author to provide an IR version at all!) But this "declaration" is possible (e.g., via http://valrec.eprints.org/ ). It does not, however, answer the question of which way to pinpoint quotes (nor where to link to the publisher's version). > Does this clarify matters? I'm afraid it continues to do the exact opposite! Stevan Harnad AMERICAN SCIENTIST OPEN ACCESS FORUM: http://amsci-forum.amsci.org/archives/American-Scientist-Open-Access-Forum.h tml http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Hypermail/Amsci/ UNIVERSITIES and RESEARCH FUNDERS: If you have adopted or plan to adopt a policy of providing Open Access to your own research article output, please describe your policy at: http://www.eprints.org/signup/sign.php http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/71-guid.html http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/136-guid.html OPEN-ACCESS-PROVISION POLICY: BOAI-1 ("Green"): Publish your article in a suitable toll-access journal http://romeo.eprints.org/ OR BOAI-2 ("Gold"): Publish your article in an open-access journal if/when a suitable one exists. http://www.doaj.org/ AND in BOTH cases self-archive a supplementary version of your article in your own institutional repository. http://www.eprints.org/self-faq/ http://archives.eprints.org/ http://openaccess.eprints.org/