Hi Gilbert, Sorry for saying this again, but I have the same problems with your last post as I had with your initial post on Garcia de Orta. You once again provide no justification in terms of reference to original or earlier historical works for any of your own speculations. But you go ahead and apply a double standard in charging that the authors of articles published in peer-reviewed journals, are speculating, despite the fact that they have provided valid references in support of most, if not all, of their statements, and you don't know what is in those references.
When they cite earlier work - a legitimate, indeed, a necessary thing for a historian to do - you accuse them of recycling ideas, as if they would be better off making things up out of thin air. You have reiterated your claim that Orta was a double agent once again without telling us where you got this from, other than making a vague reference to some "Jewish literary source". Is this speculation more valid because it is your own original fabrication, or that of the so-called Jewish literary source? I continue to be puzzled by your position on this issue. I offer specific responses to your puzzling statements below. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >I never claimed that Dr. d'Orta was brought to the inquisition >when he was alive. > But I thought you asked me to show evidence of that or express my view on that. Perhaps, you were erecting a straw man argument. > >Where is there substantiation to the above statement - that what >went on in Goa was what went on in Iberia? > Ivan D'Cruz, the author has cited the following historical reference in his article: Boxer, C. R.: "Two Pioneers of Tropical Medicine: Garcia d'Orta and Nicolas Monardes." Wellcome Historical Medical Library, London, Lecture Series No. 1, 1961. > >In fact this statement, coroborates my often repeated comment >that most writers of the Goan Inquisition transplant and replace >Goan inquisition with European Inquisition and D'Cruz is no >different. > Have you considered the possibility that they may be right and you wrong, especially since they cite original historical works and you don't? > >It well known that Dr. d'Orta was a crypto-Jew when he was >alive. In spite of that he was favored by the Portuguese courts >with wealth, his own island at Bombay, his own sailing ship and >permission to visit the neighboring Nizams. > Please note that the inquisition was established in Goa in 1560, and Orta died in 1568. So for most of his life in Goa or Bombay there was no inquisition. Please also note that S. K. Pandya cites historian C. R. Boxer's 1961 lecture (please see footnote)for the following quote: "d'Orta probably suffered shame and penury shortly before his death in Goa in 1568". > >This author just recycles the same that has been written by >others. > That is what a good historical article should do. Fabricating your own version of history without reference to original sources is revisionism. > >Please note that Pandya has made Dr. d'Orta a Jew, which he was >not. > This is not true. Pandya clearly states earlier on in his article that Orta's parents were converted Jews or new Christians. Here is the pertinent quote: "His father, Fernao d'Orta, a native of Valencia de Alcantara had emigrated when the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. Fernao and his wife (likewise of Spanish-Jewish extraction from the border town of Albuquerque) were forcibly baptised in the mass conversions ordered by King Manuel I of Portugal in 1497.[8] The converted Jews and their descendants were known as Christaos-novos or as marranos (swine)." > >It is very likely that their references (quoted sources) also >did not see those documents (of the 16th century) either. > This is an audacious speculation on your part, and demonstrably erroneous one at that. Most of the authors they have quoted such as C. R. Boxer, Vincent Smith and Frederick Danvers are historians, specializing in Portuguese history in Goa or Indian history or the history of Goa during the Inquisition. Pandya also cites some original 17th century writings, such as the travels of Jean Baptiste Tavernier (1676). Please see the references in the footnote. > >This theory about "new Christian" or "Jew" being persecuted for >living their religion IN GOA is one of those Goenchi Kanni that >keeps getting regurgitated again and again, but to me, it does >not add up. > Please tell us why you say this. What original documents regarding the Goan Inquisition lead you to this conclusion? > >It is very likely, IMHO that Dr. d'Orta's sister spilled the >beans on him and revealed "skeletons in his closet". > Please cite your original sources for this and all your other speculations. If you do not believe in citing any original material on the grounds that it is recycling, please tell me why I should believe what you are saying? > >Why has a Jewish literary source on Dr. Garcia d'Orta say, "He >lived a 'double life'"? > What is this Jewish literary source? > >So if you remove your "sondanchem inquisition blinders" and look >at the reported facts in Dr. d'Orta life, there is a lot more >there to prove and disprove the various theories about his >inquisition saga. > Before accepting your enlightened perspective on the Inquisition I would like to know the "literary" or "historical" source(s) for your enlightenment, and critically examine them. Otherwise, I would have to maintain that your view is that of a revisionist. Cheers, Santosh FOOTNOTE: Boxer, C. R.: "Two Pioneers of Tropical Medicine: Garcia d'Orta and Nicolas Monardes." Wellcome Historical Medical Library, London, Lecture Series No. 1, 1961. Smith, Vincent, A.: "The Oxford history of India from the earliest times to the end of 1911." Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1919. Tavernier, Jean Baptiste: "Travels in India by Jean Baptiste Tavernier, Baron of Aubonne. Translated from the original French edition of 1676 with a biographical sketch of the author, notes, appendices etc. V. Ball, London, Macmillan and Co. 1889. Danvers, Frederick Charles: The Portuguese in India-being a history of the rise and decline of their Eastern empire, London. W. H. Allen & Co. Ltd. 1894, Vols I, 11. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | | | | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --------------------------------------------------------------------------