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Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Look forward to the re-submission. Then we can decide >about "the hackneyed notion" ani "hollow cliches" >ani tea bhair more! Or if this post is "Pro-science" >and "logical" - really? Aum / Ami rautam tujea borea >respostak. >Aum tujo Goenkar bhau, GL > Gilbert, Sorry, I will not respond in kind to your innuendo in the above post. Regarding the list you provided, it appears you have not looked at any of the actual numbers, because they do not support your case regarding deterioration of morality at all. Plus, some of the items in your list are absurd e.g. medical problems in adults, psychological problems, stress, depression, single-family homes, children brought up in single-family homes, and ADS in children. Most common medical problems have causes that have nothing to do with morality e.g. heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer and stroke. What is the relationship between morality and psychological problems, stress and depression? People living in multi-family housing such as apartment buildings are no more moral than those living in single-family homes. Don't you live in a single-family home? Now if you are referring to single-parent homes then the one of the most common reasons for single parenthood is death of one parent, especially in India, which nobody would consider immoral. Another non-immoral reason is adoption of a postnatal child or a frozen human embryo that would otherwise have been discarded. A third non-immoral reason from the standpoint of the parent would be a child born as a consequence of rape, the single parent being the victim in this case. The three reasons that might be regarded as immoral but only by a puritanical mind focussed on certain notions of sexual morality, are single unwed heterosexual parents, divorced or separated parents, and single homosexual parents. Do you regard these latter reasons as immoral? Also, do you regard divorce because of a failed marriage as immoral? Why is ADS in children immoral? Is it their fault or their parents fault? The inclusion of teenage motherhood actually backfires from your standpoint because before the 1950s, especially in India, every mother was a teenage mother. My great grandmother had 4 kids before the age of 20. Regarding statistical data on the other items you listed, I could not find continuous 100-year data on any of them, except homicide rates. Here are the available statistics on the items you listed for the U.S. I dont have access to Indian data as yet. We can certainly compare the present generation with the prior one, viz. 2000 2004 with 1970 1980. I also have values for the 1930s, 40s or 50s for some of them. I am curious as to why you did not include homicides, rapes and the number of executed prisoners. But here are the actual numbers for your list and more: 1. Divorce rates: 1945 18 per 1000 married women; 1973 23 per 1000 married women; 2001 18 per 1000 married women. 2. Single family homes: Please see above for why this is silly and/or confusing. But regarding single-parent homes: 1970 15% of children live in such homes; 1996 28% of children live in such homes; 3. Unwed and teenage mothers: Unwed mothers: 1957 15.8 live births per 1000 women; 1977 25.1 live births per 1000 women; 2004 23.7 live births per 1000 women. Teenage mothers: 1957 - 97.3 live births per 1000 women; 1970 69.5 live births per 1000 women; 2004 41.9 live births per 1000 women. 4. Children brought up in single family homes: Please see above for why this is silly and/or confusing. 5. Teenage sex: My grandmothers, and all my ancestors, especially the females, had teenage sex. But here are the numbers that I could find: 1982 46.9% females ever had sex, 55.2% (1988) males ever had sex; 2002 45.5 % ever had sex, 45.7 % males ever had sex. Teenage pregnancies: 1976 101.4 per 1000 women; 2000 84.5 per 1000 women. STDs: Syphilis/gonorrhea/chancroid 1950 342 per 100,000; 1970 343 per 100,000; 2003 128 per 100,000. 6. Drug abuse in adults and children: Drug abuse in high school seniors Cigarettes: 1980 - 30.5%; 2004 25% Marijuana: 1980 33.7%; 2004 19.9% Cocaine: 1980 5.2%; 2004 2.3% Inhalants: 1980 1.4%; 2004 1.5% Alcohol: 1980 72%; 2004 48% 7. Abortions on demand: 1976 - 24.2 per 1000 women; 2002 20.8 per 1000 women. 8. Psychologic problems in children including ADS (Attention Deficit Syndrome): It is absurd to suggest these in general have something to do with morality. The one specific thing that might have some bearing is school retention rate or drop out rate. School retention rate upto 12th grade: 1925 384 per 1000 kids who entered 5th grade; 1962 798 per 1000 kids who entered 5th grade. Event drop out rate for grades 10 - 12: 1974 - 6.8%; 1995 - 5.7%. 9. Psychological and medical problems in adults including stress and depression rates: Please see above for why this is silly. 10. Suicide rates among senior citizens: 1981 0.36% of all causes of death; 2003 0.33% of all causes of death. 11. Violence against children: Childhood Maltreatment: 1986 22.6 per 1000 children; 1993 23.1 per 1000 children; long-term numbers not available. Childhood neglect: 1946 2.4 per 1000 population; 1970 1.9/1000 population. Subsequent estimation methods are not the same. 12. Spousal abuse: Could not find long-term longitudinal data. 13. Elder abuse: Long-term longitudinal data not available. 14. Gun violence: 1975 56.6 per 100,000 population, 2004 56.2 per 100,000 population. 15. Prisoner/Incarceration rates per 100,000 population: 1980 138; 1997 444; 2004 486. Prisoners executed: 1935 199; 1970 0; 2004 59 Additional statistics not requested by Gilbert: 16. Homicides: 1933 9.7 per 100,000 population; 1970 8.3 per 100,000 population; 2002 - 5.6 per 100,000 population. 17. Rapes: 1980 71.6 per 100,000 women; 2003 63.2 per 100,000 women. 18. Suicides: 1933 15.9 per 100,000, 1970 11.3 per 100,000. 1981 1.57% of all causes of death; 2003 1.5% of all causes of death. With a couple of exceptions, the above data clearly shows that even according to Gilbert's own contrived parameters morality in the U.S. has improved over the last 30 - 70 years. Cheers, Santosh _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org