Goanetters 1. Thanks to Joe's statistics on Goanet posts, clearly, I was spending much more time on Goanet than I had realised. Also for the gem that, there are only a few who send posts and yet there are some 7000 receiving Goanet posts because the few must be sending something of interest! Joe, I hadn't quite thought of it this way before but I have always been very keen for more people to contribute to Goanet.
This is now, a suitably delayed composite post of sorts, to help keep to my self-imposed ration on Goanet outputs! 2. Re Marlon, hi there, your response to me indicates that you are no longer a Catholic. This could be for many reasons. However, with respect, one discernible difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler definitely remained a publicly practising Catholic throughout his life. Nevertheless, thanks for your thoughtful insights on the rest of my post. 3. Gilbert, your last two posts indicate that you are intensely religious even though you once claimed to be a "cafeteria Catholic." Clearly, you are infinitely more than that from my perspective, within a largely secular UK. I repeat what I have said often, I entirely respect your sincerely held religious belief/devotion to Catholicism. I must say though that, I was rather surprised that you were quite limited in labelling me anti-Catholic because of a) my well known views on the Catholic Goan caste issue and b) my historical interpretation of Hitler's religious status as a Catholic. However, with great respect too, while you focus heavenwards, I should like to suggest you keep your feet on the ground too! 3.1 "Demagogy" may be a fine description for Fidel Castro's mindboggling lengthy public speeches. However, my posts on Goanet are surely totally insignificant in comparison, and also not linked to oratory as the word demagogy suggests! I humbly submit that, you unnecessarily elevate my proletarian status to heights I definitely do not deserve nor to which I aspire! I have no hidden agenda in what I say, nor do I believe in conspiracy theories. All I have ever done is to present points of view honestly that may or may not be acceptable. Above all, unlike someone well versed in a specific art, I do not need to distort other people's posts out of sheer "desperation" to score points on Goanet! 3.2 Your suggestion that Catholic Goan caste practice is an oxymoron simply can't be taken seriously. Nor your attempt, as in the past, to suddenly make caste practice disappear as if by magic! Your previous attempt at this got a sharp retort from Margaret Mascarenhas. Among others, Mario referred to the "abomination" of caste among Catholic Goans several times and I also asked you to check the Herald for current evidence about caste adverts for matrimonial partners. You had later agreed with me that caste and Catholicism were incompatible even though there was clear evidence for the existence of this 'disease' among Catholic Goans. I just thought I'd remind you about something you may have tried to forget! Also, three scholarly sources may be useful to you that, make my contention about caste among Catholic Goans today much more explicit than I can do---Olivinho Gomes, Robert S Newman, and Wangle and Coelho. 3.3 Your stated that, were I to refer to Hitler as a Catholic Fascist, this would lose me a job as an academic in the USA. This is of course totally incorrect. I knew this for certain but also checked it with my American college/university colleagues across the States. They were certain that you were thoroughly confused on this point. Further, they indicated that, some highly committed groups took any criticism of their practise as anti this and anti that and quite illegitimately resorted to terms like "anti-semitism" too readily. However, according to them, including a priest incidentally, the Catholic Church seems to be too secure to be worried about Hitler as a Catholic fascist-- the point that seems to exercise you so much. I should also like to point out that were I on the Board of Walmart, I would urge the sacking of Andrew Young myself as he was definitely bad for Walmart's business. He should have been more pragmatic than to have amplified views about Jewish, Arab, Korean shopkeepers over pricing, in their shops, even if true. However, to equate this example with what is common knowledge in the UK, and often said/discussed when linking religion to political ideology that, Hitler was a Catholic Fascist along with other Catholic Fascists in Europe as a historical fact is simply indisputable and not in the least bit improper presentationally. I also note that at no time did you object to the excessive use of "Islamo Fascists" by one particular individual on Goanet.Was it OK for you to see Muslims as fascists but not Catholics? Surely as a good Catholic, you don't go in for double standards Gilbert! Do you? 3.4 I do pleasantly note however, that you would have preferred me to say that, "Hitler was a fascist who happened to be Catholic." I am most happy if you choose to be so pedantic. But one implication of your suggestion is that, instead of saying "Gilbert Lawrence, the Goan oncologist" we would now have to say, "Gilbert Lawrence, the oncologist, who happens to be a Goan!" No problem Gilbert, I accept! But I hope you note that, you have implicitly accepted that Hitler was a Catholic! That of course makes several of us. Me, you, Peter (albeit the use of "cultural Catholic") and others but with just one very determined 'empty vessel' stridently resisting to contemplate any aspect of this view even when it was made clear, repeatedly, by Hitler himself that, he strongly believed as a Catholic that he was doing God's Will in exterminating Jews. He was both, "believing" and "doing" what he thought to be correct in his faith, even though I have said several times that he was mistaken and wrong in his murderous project. 3.5 Let me now clarify why Hitler got into the frame in our discussions at all. It has been my contention that the idea of " a rock solid Christian moral code" (RSCMC), is entirely bogus and dubious. Firstly, it claims ridiculous exceptionalism when we know that, all religions have their own moral codes that are not terribly different from one another. RSCMC further embodies the essence of the old view in cathechism classes that, many of us (on Goanet) would have attended, that said that Catholicism is the 'true faith'. We do know better of course, that if this were so, then all other faiths, including Protestantism, by definition, could not be true faiths even to their adherents. This is, of course, totally preposterous. Secondly, I was keen to show that Catholic belongingness (let alone Christianity in general) has a distinctive elasticity about it. The Church can cope perfectly well with some of the worst Catholics around through the mediation of the potential for redemption. No Mickey Mouse 'make-believe rock solidity' is required to be operational, prescriptive, or as a prerequisite, even with the likes of Catholic hoodlums in Cosa Nostra, the Mafia and of course, Hitler. Hitler was never disowned by the Catholic Church/Vatican and it is absurd for any 'sonorous empty vessel' to go on ad nauseum that, Hitler was not a Catholic because he did not follow all of the Ten Commandments. If we use such a yardstick, there would be a minute number of Catholics, (assuming this aspect could be policed), and not the billion plus Catholics in the world! Even the Popes (who presumably know better on this issue) have not gone in for an exclusionary ruling on Hitler. Otherwise we would have heard of this well before the advent of any utterly confused and ill-informed staunch RSCMC Goanetter! I understand that, Lucifer still represents the ultimate devil in Catholicism and that Hitler has never stood a chance for comparable notorious exalted status! 3.6 I'd now like to make some observations about the notion of "religion bashing" on Goanet as expressed by about four posters. Goanet is not a religious site and has never been so. It does not need to protect any religion as long as we use moderation in discourse. Consequently, any use of this label by some posters is completely inappropriate in my view. Indeed, why religion is discussed at all on Goanet is because there are many Catholics in Goa and Catholicism is pretty central to significant numbers in Goa. 3.7 Next, your suggestion that my reference to Hitler as a Catholic Fascist ought to have been 'blocked' by Goanet moderators smacks of censorship. Would you not agree? But perhaps you can justify your stance on this point and I await this. 3.8 To go further, I'd like to suggest that, the individuals who may be raising questions and problematising religious issues are in many ways free-thinking radicals who have been surprised to discover that there are several others like themselves on Goanet. Basically, they are raising intelligent questions about taken-for-granted received orthodoxy in religions/religious practices. Surely, this is perfectly laudable and educational as long as they respect sincere believers, like your good self, and do not try to convert or subvert them to their way of thinking. To try to deride this kind of discourse, using highly dubious claims under the rubric of "religion bashing" is to make Goanet infinitely poorer in my view in terms of social capital. The free-thinking radicals have been like a breath of fresh air when not much intellectually might have been forthcoming from the traditional religionists. Clearly, all things can be discussed calmly and productively without needing to resort to name calling like "religion bashing." Would you not agree with me on this simple point? 4. And now, with the hope that you might ease up a bit on your religiosity, and in a lighter vein, I'd like to share something with you about the distinct possibility that, in terms of geographical location, you may be a neighbour to the genuine Hitlers! Like most immigrants, Hitler's family is doing rather well in America. A large photograph of Adolf Hitler's nephew and his wife exiting from church on Palm Sunday was shown in an article in one of our quality Sunday papers. This may totally surprise you Gilbert but, Adolf Hitler had spent 1912-13 in Liverpool, England, dodging the German military draft. He had stayed with his half brother before returning to Germany. It is the offspring of his half-brother who was featured in the article. Further, we were told that a book on this extended family would be out soon. It took some time for the author to track down the family because, understandably, they had changed their surname! Interestingly, some parallels with Svetlana, Stalin's daughter in America may emerge in the book. By association, the good, bad and ugly, among others, do seem to make a bee-line from Europe to the States! 5. I hope you can see that everything I have said above, has absolutely nothing to being even remotely anti-Catholic. It has much to do with historical interest and intelligent civilised discourse between us to which I am sure Goanet is wholly committed. Very cordially Cornel _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org