Hi Gilbert There are so many examples of what I would ever so politely refer to as your home-spun 'facts' that do not stand scrutiny at all. This is not the time to list at least ten examples of this that I could readily trot out-- therefore, I will only intersperse a few of my comments within your post below: --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As regards the Church in Goa running schools > pre-1961, it takes money to run a school, even for a > Church. Amchem tempar, looks like every Goan wanted > a free education for their kids... So I am > disappointed that you should be bringing in caste in > the efforts of the priests, who worked hard, to > serve their communities. > CORNEL: The issue is not whether the Church supported education of the Catholic Goans or not. Of course some may have done so even if termed as through 'benign neglect' by Antonio. But the issue is with your contention that the Catholic Goans should be grateful to the Church for the education it provided to the poor. THIS POINT OF YOURS WAS HIGHLY ERRONEOUS and I suggest that you should first acknowledge that your CONTENTION WAS WRONG arising from what I also wrote about the matter. You really should avoid moving fleetingly and tangentially to a different issue as though you had failed to note what others had said in reply to you. Further, is it not true that pre 1961, it was the Portuguese Government and not the Catholic Church (as you implied) that, provided free village schools at the primary/elementary level. I should be happy for Antonio or anyone else to correct me on this point please if I am wrong. GILBERT: 1. Despite the poverty and illiteracy, those Goans knew and were faithful to their identity and culture. CORNEL: You keep repeating this mantra without indicating exactly what you mean. If indeed you mean that people knew their social place and standing and Goan society was thus relatively static, I have already argued in another post to you that Catholic Goan society has always been dynamic in resistance to the status quo and that the rebellions and migration exodus in huge numbers are indicative of this dynamism. GILBERT:2. I do not know or understand why the isolated Goans today (of various castes) are fighting > (verbally killing) each other, when we were all victims of colonialism. Are we being silly despite our education? CORNEL: Oh no Gilbert... a)please do not try to distract or divert us to former colonialism in this debate on the centrality of caste in Goa today. We can always discuss colonialism and post-colonialism when necessary and you can start such a discussion if you wish to do so. I would happily join such a discussion too. b) Do not assume (as I think all your posts would suggest you do)that, most Goans today recognise and accept the village-based caste imposed upon them by those claiming upper caste status. In my view, the anti-casteists are determined to expose, embarrass and highlight the residual caste adherents not only over their family past hegemony and elitism but also to draw them out and confront their continuing persistence for caste, and determination to fight their corner in current discussion on Goanet. c) It is precisely the education availed of that, is cutting the mustard over caste and making it extremely difficult for caste adherents to generate a plausible rationale and justification for caste. Instead, we see a resort to innuendo and personal attacks against the anti-casteist who are morally highly committed to eradicate this evil of caste sooner rather than later among so called Catholic Goans. > GILBERT: 3. We should be looking back with pride, on how far we have come. This, instead of looking back with bitterness. Is it because we have nothing better to do? > CORNEL: Oh such pious words Gilbert! Do you really believe that the majority Catholic Goan population can look back with pride over their symbolic and material 'subordination' by the dominant castes over the past half millennium? This includes the segregation re seating in churches and even segregation in the graveyard as noted by Roland and echoed by Eric Pinto in his Goanet advice to me to avoid certain parts of Goa, as exclusivity by caste in burial graveyards still prevails! Further, the segregationist tendencies among some 'upper'castes are as strong as ever today, including the sustained pressures towards endogamy generated through indoctrination into caste. All this is well recorded in the Goan sociological literature too. The past does not dissipate overnight dear Gilbert however much you might wish it did especially when we do not detect any form of apology or 'atonement' for past caste excesses. Indeed, if you read the literature about the bitterness people feel about apartheid in South Africa, and racism in 1950s/1960s America, you might just about begin to understand how people might feel about caste among the Catholic Goans. Finally, I must be thankful to you for your continuing discussion on this enigma of caste among Catholic Goans---a topic that intrigues me greatly. Cornel